Document wgRkkBJmvkR6b4G6x4eqkdpx6
FILE NAME: Phenolic Resins (PHR) DATE: 1989 Mar 10
DOC#: PHR082
DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Dr. Carl U. Dernehl, Vol. 1,with Barry Castleman Notes
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STATE OF MINNESOTA
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DISTRICT COURT
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COUNTY OF CARLTON SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 7 PERSONAL INJURY/CAREY
6
Arthur A. Frehse,
7
and Helen J. Frehse,
husband and wife,
' 8 Plaintiffs,
9
10
vs.
Anchor Packing Company,
11
et a l .,
12
Defendants.
13
14
15.
VOLUME I
16
17
18
Deposition of CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D., taken
19
pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition, and taken before
20
Kirby A. Kennedy, a Notary Public in and for the County of
21
Hennepin, State of Minnesota, on the 10th day of March
22
1989, at the--H-oli-day-- Inn, University Plaza & Trade Center,
23
333 Sherman Parkway, Springfield, Missouri, commencing at
24
approximately 9;15 o 'clock a.m.
25
UC 01731
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .
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^ ^
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1
APPEARANCES: 2
MICHAEL S. PCLK, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of
3
HERTOGS, FLUEGEL, SIEBEN, POLK, JONES & LaVERDIERS, 999
Westview Drive, Hastings, Minnesota 55033, appeared for and
4
on behalf of Plaintiff.
5
ROBERT D. BROWNSON, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm
of STICH, ANGELL, KREIDLER & MUTH, Suite 120, The Crossings,
6
250 Second Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401, "
appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Conwed Corporation. 7
BRUCE JONES, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of
8
FAEGRE & BENSON, 2200 Norwest Center, 90 South Seventh
Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-39001, appeared for
9
and on behalf of Defendants Armstrong World Industries
(Delaware), Inc., GAF Corporation, Keene Corporation,
10
National Gypsum Company, Owens-Corning Fiberglas
Corporation, Owens-Illinois, Inc., Turner & Newall PLC,
11
Union Carbide Corporation and United States Gypsum Company.
12
WILLIAM D. HARVARD, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm
Of BLASINGAME, BURCH, GARRARD & BRYANT, PC, 440 College
13
Avenue North, P.O. Box 832, Athens, Georgia 30603, appeared
for and on behalf of Defendant Union Carbide Corporation
14
and members of CCR.
15
ANTHONY J. LAURA, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of
KELLEY, DRYE & WARREN, 175 South Street, Morristown, New
16
Jersey 07960, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Union
Carbide Corporation.
17
18
JOSEPH GOLDBERG, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of
MILLER & NEARY, Suite 606, Park National Bank Building,
19
5353 Wayzata Boulevard, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55416,
20
appeared for and on behalf of Defendant A. W. Chesterton Company.
21
ROBERT E. DIEHL, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of
MEAGHER, -GEER, MARKHAM, ANDERSON, ADAMSON, FLASKAMP &
22
BRENNAN, 4200.Mu-lti-foods Tower, 33 South South Sixth
Street; Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402, appeared for and on
23
behalf of Defendant A.H. Bennett Company.
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25
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KIRBY A. KENNEDY t ASSOCIATES
. (612) 922-1955^*
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-nL-
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GARY fi. BISHOP, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of
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MANN, WALTER, BURKART, WEATHERS & WALTER, 300 John Q.
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Hammons Parkway, Suite 600, Springfield, Missouri 65805,
appeared for and on behalf of Defendant W. R. Grace &
3 Company.
4
INDEX:
5
Cross-Examination by Mr. Brownson
Page 5
VO
6
Cross-Examination by Mr.Polk
Page 11
7
Recross-Examination by Mr. Brownson
Page 161
8
Cross-Examination by Mr. Goldberg
Page 164
9
10
Dernehl Deposition Exhibits 1 through 44 marked Page 4
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Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 45 marked
Page 55
12
Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 46 marked
Page 147
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14
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2k
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KIRBY A. KENNEDY 6 ASSOCIATES <612 92?-\^5S -'g&W.X
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(At t m s time DZRNJHL Deposition ixmci.o 1 tnrough 44 viere n a m e d for icintij.*.^.-ti^.. ./ the Court Reporter.)
MR. JONES: Dr. Dernehl has informed us nat ue is a diabetic nna for that reason is occa:.ona_lv abject to nypogiycemia. He has also asked us to waton nin arefuliy because ne has difficulty becaus of lac.< of oncentration. He will take the measures that ne can to orrect it. It 's also important for that reason that we ireak for lunch right at 11:55 or noon.
MR. BROWNSON: Why don't you make sure
.hat we have a watch here. MR. JONES:
I just wanted to let you
enow,
MR. 3R0WNSGN: We will do anything to
accommodate. (At this time a discussion was held off the record.) .
CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D., the Witness in the above-entitled matter after having been first duly sworn deposes and 3ays as follows:
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES _^ ^
(612 4 922-1955
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CRQ'3-CXAill JAT 10
5
Y .IR. J.10WJ 304:
2.
3.-. D 4 i.-r.2hl, ay name is 3co Brownson. I
ncrcduced myself to you earlier. I represent i company
:alied Conweu Corporation, which is a Defendant m a .dwsuit up in .linn-esota brought by a James ,'ianisto igcins.
-,any Defendants. Do you understand generally that we are
iere on that case? Have you been informed of tnat fact'5
A.
I have bean informed that there is a lawsuit
/hich involves Union Carbide and that's about if.
q.
We are hers today to ask you some questions
concerning Union Carbide matters and I am going co start
out the questioning and others, I am sure, will also
question you. '3efore we start I would like to tell you a
couple of things. The first is if my questions are not clear to you or anyone's questions are not clear to you or
you don't understand them, would you please tell us that
before you answer the question?
A. Yes. Q. And that waywe will have
a record wnich
reflects question s that you understood. Okay?
A. Right. Q. And, secondly, please speak upaudibly and don't shake your head or shrug your holders or say huh-uh
~
KIRBY A. KENNEDY 6. ASSOCIATES
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b>
or :hC3>i sorts of thinys bacausc Xirby will have difficulty
2
wioh tie:.
u
A. ; understand.
4
0* And, finally, don'tspeak while I an speaking
5
^od 1 will try nor to speak while you are bec.iuje ba can't
S
CQi<e uown two people at once. Is that agreeable?
7
A. Right.
3
0. Dr. Dernehl, have youever had yourdeposition
,
.
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taken before?
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10
A. Yes.
I
11
Q.
Has it ever been taken in any proceedings
12
regarding an asbestos-related case?
13
A.
I was called to give a deposition in an
14
asbestos-related case but the deposition was discontinued.
15
It was a problem between the attorneys.
16
Q. . Did you actually give any testimony on the
17
record or didn't it yet that far7
IS
A. It never got that far.
19
Q. The depositions. that you have given, generally
20
in what context were tnose, what type of case?
21
A. Usually involving chemicals.
22
Q. -- Were 'those injury type cases involving
2 j
chemicals or patent cases or what?
24
A. Injury type.
25
Q.
Have you ever testified in court in an injury
4
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
i
CU3~ wnere you :.avi actually gone with Counsel to tha
2
courthouse and testified^
rt
Tes.
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kj
Do you recall where that was-5
--1 fl*
5
A.
there wa 3 some involving workmans
Q
dciwunsat ion cases that were down in Galveston County in
7
Texas. I testified in Georgia, North Carolina, how Cork,
b
Tennessee, maybe some others. Those are all I can recall
9
right now.
10
Q.
In any of those cases in which you have
11
testified, did tney involve asbestos in any way?
12
A.
They did not.
1 j
Q.
Have you ever given testimony before Jor.gress
14
or any regulatory agency?
15
A.
As I recall 1 testified before ?. Senate
lo
nearing on the OCHA law during the days when it was being
17
formulated.
13
Q.
Was this the OSHA law with respect to asbestos
19
in the work place or somethingelse?
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A.
No, this was the basic OSHA law.
.
21
Q.
Did that testimony have anything to do with
22
asbestos or-- asbestos., standards?
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A.
No, it did not.
24
Q.
Have you ever given any testimony to, and this
25
would be testimony under oath, in any forum regarding
'c :
VTDDV *
*TT?rNV' c. * c enr* T
Jm -sbescos for OSHA standards which regulate asbestos that
2
you c.an chink
A.
lo, I nave not.
4
0. Are you the author of any publications'3
5
A. Regarding anything?
0.
Weil, I will start with that and I think we
7
will narrow it down pratty quick depending on what you say.
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A. Yes.
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Q.
About how nany publications have you authored?
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I don't need an exact number but give me a ballpark figure.
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A.
Ten.
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0. Did any of those publications have anything to
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do with asbestos?
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A.
They did not.
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0. Have you contributed to anytextbooks or
16
publications or texts of any type whichdealt with asbestos
17
even if you weren't the primary author?
13
A.' I have not.
19
Q. Have you peerreviewed any texts or articles
20
or published material dealing with asbestos?
21
A. I have not.
22
q . -- D-r .-De rneh l, how old are you at the present
23
time?
24
A. Seventy-five.
25
q . Are you currentlyemployed?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ^ S O C I A T E S
fF-"
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(612)
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-30.
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.. .
o.
.Vouxn you tnen be retired?
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I am retiree.
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Ara you living hare in Springfield
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A
Yus, I am.
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What was the last occupation you retired from0
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i was the associate coroorate medical director
d
of Union Carbide Corporation.
9
Q.
Whan was the date of your retirement0
.
iO
A.
It would be August, I guess, probably the 30th,
11. 1979.
12
.
And where were you located at the time of your
13
retirement, where were you officing?
i 4
A.
270 Park Avanue, New York.
15
'
o.
Is that the location of the main Union Carbide
15
medical department in the United States, corporate medical
17
department?
13
A.
It was at that tins.
19
Q.
Has that changed sinca that time0
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A.
Yes, it has.
21
Q.
When did you begin with Union Carbide0
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A. .A-p-f-i-l-- 1-;.1947 .
23
Q.
Let me just back up before that a little bit
2 4
and ask you what your formal education was before that time0
25
A.
I was in high school in a city called
,. .
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
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t 0^* \% A^^ ^ 'Vir*-*
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auwatosa, Wisconsin, which is a suburb of !:iwau.%ea. .
neared chc Univarsity of Wisconsin where 1 received a 2\
/t>
egrei= and then an M.D. degree.
u.
Whan did you receive your M.D.?
A . 19 j3.
'
Q.
And that was from Wisconsin'5
a.
A. Q. n )f Arts. Q.
That was from Wisconsin.
At Madison?
At .ladison.
.
What was your 3A in, what field'5
Nothing specific, just general arts, Sachelc:
What training or further education did you
obtain upon getting your M.D.?
A.
I had a one-year rotating internship at the
Medical College of Virginia in Richmond, Virginia, and then
I stayed on for the first year of a medical residency as Internal Medical Residency at the Medical College of Virginia. I was scheduled to take the last two yee.ro of a
residency there but due to problems with the alumni, the
decision was made to drop a number of non-MCV graduates from the reaiderrey-putogram and so we had to look elsewhere.
I then went to the medical branch of the University of
Texas at Galveston, Texas, where I took two years in a trial residency program, which was a conflagration of
* <*. .1
KIRBY A. KENNEDY fi< ASSOCIATES ,
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(612) 922-1955 4
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p * 'iV J u w U C iV 9 and internal medicines.
2
0.
Jour.us like the alumni at the Medical College
of Vivgiru a didn't like non-Virgir.ia .-Iodica 1 Coll go
4
graduates in :.u residency, is chat it?
5
a . We-1, tneir problem was that ail but one of
6
cueir residents were from outside schools and the alumni
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f<jlt taut some of these residency positions should, be
. a
reserved for MOV graduates. At that time residencies wara
9
r.ard to get, and when we were told that we ware going to be
10
dropped it was really only by sheer luck that I got this
11
place down at the University of Texas. All of the rest of
12
then were filled up years in advance.
13
0.
Following that residency in Texas did you have
14
any further education, formal education?
15
A.
After I finished the residency, I was offered
i 5 a position on the teaching faculty and I stayed on in the
17
Department of Preventive Medicine teaching Occupational
13
Medicine from 1942 to 1947.
19
Q.
And did you then join Union Carbide?
20
A.
Joined Union Carbide in 1947. The University
21
requested permission to keep me on as an advising lecturer,
22
which was granted....by-Carbide. In the couple of years later,
23
aylor Medical College in Houston requested my services as
24
a faculty member and I was given a position as Clinical
25
Assistant Professor of Occupational Medicine, Industrial
KIRBY A.(61K2E)NNE9D2Y2-1&95A5SSOCIATES . ".'JVV-'
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.'edicine at that cine.
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Q.
'..'ouid ycu describe for us your posit ions in
\t
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tne nodical d^-partuant at Union Carbide through the years,
4
-a you take us through that chronology?
5
A.
2 started in 1947 as the medical director of
5
the Texas City plant, which was a large chemical plant. I
7
worked there until 1955 when I was transferred to New York
as assistant medical director of Union Carbide Corporation
9
with responsibility for the chemicals plants. In 19G3 I
io
was given the title of director of toxicology for the
li
corporation. In 19o5 I was given the title of associate
12
corporate medical director with responsibility for
13
toxicology and assorted ganeral trouble shooting operations.
14
I was also at that time told that I was to represent the
15
corporation in medical affairs in various specialty
1
organizations like the Manufacturing Chemists Association,
17
Jociety of the Plastics Industry, Compressed Gas
Ib
association. Those I think were the major jobs that I have
19
done.
20
Q.
Then from '65 through '75 you were associate
21
corporate medical director, do I have that right?
22
A.
'55 through '79.
23
Q.
'79?
24
A.
Right.
25
Q.
And you were stationed during those years at
KIRBY A.- KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955
'.TV >j6rTtv i t
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Hew York City at the corporate offices on ?erk Av/u.rua-5
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.
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j
w During your years at Onion Carbide up through
A t
19/9, did you ever ttsnd any conferences or symposia or
5
proceedings which had anything to do with asbestos-5
6
A.
i did.
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wiiat and where were those?
4
3
A.
I really can't remember.
9
Q.
Can you remember any of them?
10
A.
I can't give you any dates, but I know that I
li
attended some that were conducted by Dr. Selikoff and at
12
least one that was conducted by the, I guess, Hew York
13
State Industrial Hygiene Department.
14
Q.
And do you recall which conferences you
15
attended which were conducted by Dr. Selikoff?
16
A.
No, I really don't.
17
Q.
Do you recall where those conferences were
Id
held?
19
A.
In New York, as I recall'.
20
Q.
Were they at Mount Sinai Hospital-5
21
A. One of them was.
22
Q.
Were those conferences at which you attended
23
by Dr. Selikoff conferences conducted by the Mew York
24
Academy of Sciences?
25
A.
I really don't remember. -
KIRBY A. KENNEDY fc ASSOCIATES (612) `922-1955 k. TXsrflE*'
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Do you recall tha topics under discussion at
2
tnose confatances with Dr. Jeiikoff*5
5
A.
.Iy recollection would be they were the general
4
types of nazards associated with asbestos m i sons research
5
reports on some of Selikoff's work.
Q
C.
Do you remember any of the other speakers at
7
tnose conferences other tnan Dr. Selikoff himself5
3
A.
No, not really.
.
9
0.
Do you know if either of the Dr. McDonalds
10
were involved, Dr. A. V. or a Corbit McDonald? Mow about
11
Dr. Wagner from South Africa, do you know if he had any
12
involvement?
lu
A.
I don't believe I ever heard him.
14
U.
How about a doctor named Arthur Rohl, do you
15
know if he was involved? .
16
A. I don't remember.
17
Q. How about a doctor named Langer?
18
A. I don't remember.
19
Q.
When did you first hear of the work of Dr.
20
Selikoff, do you recall that?
21
A.
Yes, it was during the testimony before the
22
Senate committee when 03HA was being formed. Dr. Selikoff
23
testified immediately or a short time before I did and he
24
used the asbestos -- the observations he had made in
25
asbestos workers as the pressing point for an OSHA law.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-195!
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DO you rmember wuan that was?
2
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Ihe best a could remember it would '-.ova to be
j
let-2 160s or aarly '7Js.
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0 *
Do you reoa 11 where this Senate hearing took
5
place?
6
.\. wasnmgton, D c
7
Q.
WO.5 it seme particular commit tee or
ubcommittee of the Senate, do you recall?
9
rv
I don' t recall that. I know it was in one of
10
tii3 hearing rooms in che Senate office building.
11
Q.
Uo /ou remember any of the Senators who were
12
present?
13
A.
I am sorry, I don't. The only one that ring.;
14
any kind of a bell, and I don't remember his name, and he
15
was from New Jersey and he was one of the Democrats and one
lo
of the pressing members of the issue.
17
Q.
when did you first become involved in any way
13
with the asbestos group, if X can use that term, ..t Jnicn
19
Carbide?
0
A.
I would have to say in certainly the '60s.
21
Q.
Ana do you recall what that involvament was or
22
what you did at that time?
23
A.
At that time there was some conferences with
24
tha corporate medical director and the asbestos production
25
people at which we discussed their plans for the production
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .(net 1r#>' *Uf
of -sbestos.
I t?
2
w*
Now, when you soy asbestos production peuple,
3
arc- tnsse the people at King City, California, is -.net what
4
wa are speaking about here?
5
A.
At that time they ware che people in aha Pew
8
York offices wno were working on the concept of going into
7
the mining of asbestos at King City.
3
Q.
bo if we could put this in context, it sounds
9
like the KingCity deposit, the Ccalinga deposit, had been
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discovered and now there was soma discussions as to going
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into : ..eduction, is that about the time frame we ire in?
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A. That's about it.
|
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13
Q. .7ere there any written reports or documents
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produced as a result of those discussions?
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A. I really don't know.
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1 6
Q. .Who were the asbestos production people, if I
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17
can use that tern, who were involved in the discussions?
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A. I have no recollection.
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,
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19
Q. Do you recall why the medical director and
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yourself were involved in the discussions?
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A.
Because that was standard procedure within the
22
corporation, that when we were about to embark upon a new
23
manufacturing activity early in the planning stages the
24
corporate medical department was brought into the picture.
25
Q.
Who was the corporate medical director at that
KIRBY A. KENNEDY < ASSOCIATES (612) 922-19S5. h-T-
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win! who v;aj involved in m discussions'3
2
A.
Dr. Tnomus Dale.
d.
Is D r . ..Ia still around?
4
rv
He is dead
5
Q.
Diner chan yourself and Dr. Hale, do you
any other people from the medical depar ment
7
involved in those discussions?
8
A.
At tust time I think there was just ehe two of
9
us. Excuse me. There was one ocher who was involved at
I
10
that tize and that was our chief industrial hygienist, Paul
X*X\ McDaniel.
12
Q.
Is Mr. McDaniel still around?
13
a . I really don't know.
14
0.
Do you know if he is alive?
15
A.
Ho was two ysars ago. 'whether he still is, I
16
don't know.
17
Q.
I take it from your answer that he is no
13
longer working at Union Carbide?
19
A.
No, he retired a number of years ago.
20
Q. Do you know where he was as of a couple of
21
years ago?
'
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22
A.
I think he was at Rochester, New York.
23
.
Let me go back to the year 1955 when you moved
I
24
to New York City to the medical department at Union Carbide
25
At that point in time I want to ask you about the medical
KIRBY A. KENNEDY ^ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 7?'.-.SliStf*>1
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department, now ic was set up. I take it that the main
q
2
office of the medical department for Union Carbide
Corporation was in N_*w York City at the Park Avenue address,
4
is that right?
5
Ws weren't in Park Avenue at that time. The
6
medical department was situated at 300 Madison Avenue,
1I
j.
Did the medical department have its own
i
facility or v/as that in the corporate offices of Union
,
9
Carbide?
i
j
10
A.
Weil, tney had two medical departments in New
;
11
York? theyhad a rather large personnel medical deo'artment,
'!
12 which also was responsible for supervision of overseas
II ;
13
operations, and thenthe department they called the
:
14
industrial medicineandtoxicologydepartment, which was
i
15
comprised of two people, Dr. Hale and myself, and we were
i
16
at 300 Madison.
j
l
17
Q.
Where was the personnel medical department?
j
.
i
18
A.
It was at, what was the address, let's see, it
19
was on 42nd Street. Right around the corner on 42nd Street.
20
Q.
Now, the personnel medical department, what
21
generally did they do or what was their function at that
22
time?
23
A.
Provided medical service for people that
24
worked in tne building, did pre-employment examinations.
25
Q.
And would they, for example, have anything to
J `
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ... ,
~
(612) 922-1955
' ;... .3
i
uo with .abdicai problems in the Union Cirbi i'3 'ol ant
un-
2
ike country?
j
A.
Lio.
4
5 JiCp
: that under the auspices of you
Or.
A.
Yes.
7
d*
Now, the personnel medical department, you 3 3y(
8
also was in entree of overseas work. '`That was that"3
3
A.
Well, they did all the medical work for
10
individuals who were being sent overseas for either work
positions or on trips and they received a lot of the
12
questions that tame up as a result of overseas operations
18
where as they received them they were commonly passed cn to
14
Dr. Nuie and myself for answers.
15
Q.
Let me give'you a hypothetical example. Let's
16
say a Union Carbide division in Brighton in 1955 some
17
question came up about a condition in a factory, for
13
example. Are you telling us that that question may have
19
been conveyed to the personnel medical department who would
20
then refer it to you and Dr. :-Iale?
21
A. That sort of an operation, yes.
22
Q. But --
2 t
A.
Excuse me, let me also comment on the fact
24
that without any specific directive in that direction in
25
the subsequent few years from '53 on, I would say the
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
v-Wv
1 I 2 *j 4 3 5 7 d 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 . 2-
arseas D er ati on s
to respond directly to Dr. Mi--
d myse!:lf without going rhrougn tne employee m-di--..
rviues. 0.
wall, would it be fair to say that ultimately
ch questions from overseas department about toxicology or
giene would end up in the department of you and Dr. Mai.o^
A. Absolutely. Q. And would that also be true about such
lestions in this country, if the question came from a ion Carbide facility here about hygiene or toxicology,
.at would be referred to you or Dr. Nale?
A.
Yes.
MR. JONES: What time period are you
aIking about?
MR. 3R0WN3QH: I was still talking about
55. MR. BROWNSON: q .' Was that true then up through 1955, that same
neral set up from '55 to '65?
A.
From '55 to '65 I would say practically all c
aa ovarsaas operations problems came to 'Jala and myself,
nd all of tha U.S. plant operations came to Kale and
yself a.
How, when you were promoted to director of
. ,
rQ 0(.ni within the industrial
oxicology m 19o j , was this still
tu
KIRBY A. KENNEDY &.ASSOCIATES
i
medicine and toxicology branch of the nodical daoartnon 7
2
A.
'..'0 3 wirnin tn.2 -3iuie framework w ith rh.a
J
except: ion that somewhere in there, and I really don't k GW
*A hr.on or /here, m e toxicology wee dropped from. tho
5
department and it mainly became the industrial medical
6
aepar txent.
7
J. But did that department still deal with
a
hygiene and toxicology questions'5
.
9
A. Right.
Id
Q.
Throughout your tenure at the New York office
II
from 1965 to 1979, were you always involved with that
i 2 particular aspect of the medical department7
13
A Yes.
14
a.
The toxicology aspect?
15
A.
Yes.
Id
'
Q. ' And I take it that the name changed from time
17
to time but the subject matter remained the same7
la
A.
Correct.
19
Q.
Other than Dr. Nale and yourself, who else was
20
involved in that department while you were there through
21
*79?
22
A.
L e t 's ;;ee, Dr. Kenneth Lane, who was an
23
assistant medical director; Dr. Brian Balantyne; a large
24
staff of industrial hygienists, Paul McDaniel being one,
25
Leo LaFrance. I can't remember' the other two. Those are
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
. / .>
i i1 tuc ones that 1 knew
2
others . .kn epi iemioi
3
fhare was anoth er ii.D
l
4
escape s ne but ne is
5
cnink that `s about it
6
more, ther a was a cha
TL-
ch
Cm A
an
> -W U
.. . ..
. kmiC Y
3 medical directors m L
A
;
there, Jr. John Welsh
3
from 19o i to 19 79 'who
9
Q.
I think
10
am clear on this point, from 1955 to 1979 were questions of
11
industrial hygiene and toxicology in Union Carbide
12
facilities both in this country and overseas within the
L U
jurisdiction of this industrial medicine and toxicology
14
group?
15
A.
Yes, they were;
io
Q.
And have you now given us the names of all the
17
people you can recall who were within that group for those
ia
years, anyone else in that group that you can think of from
19
'55 to '79?
*
20
A.
I really can't remember.
21
Q.
Now, other than at the main medical office in
22
wew York City, were there industrial hygiene type people,
23
whether they are medical doctors or not, at other Union
24
Carbide locations?
'
25
A.
Yes.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY . ASSOCIATES ffi12h 922-1955
.'ow was chat sat jp, car. /ou tall" u:
j
A.
Saneriiiy 'it .as set up or. che basis of ploot
J ' Si2e
.siutay
opinion, le t's put it th.it ..'ay, because
4 : we had -- in the cho.iiio.ois operations ./hare ./a had largo
5
c u e n t s , lots of people, lots of hazards, wa had full tine
6 j medical services, one or two plant physicians, and
7 ! industrial hygienists, ana nurses. And other operations
3
where we had just as many employees but the hazards were
9
a##er&n.t,, they were lower, we -would have part-tine
10
positions in the community. So every plant we had had some
11
contact with a physician who acted as the medical director
12
for that particular unit. .
13
Q.
How about King City, California, do you know
14
v/nat medical personnel you had there through the years0
15
A.
They had a outside consulting physician who
15
examined their people, read their X-rays, handled any minor
17
injuries they had and so forth.
18
Q.
Do you know who that physician was"
19
A.
I don't recall his nine.
20
Q.
Was he at King City?
21
A.
I an not sure, it was either King City or
22
Monterey. I believe he was at King City.
23
Q...'- Have you ever been to King City?
24
A.
Twice.
'
25
Q.
When was that, do you know?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES
'
'
i
A.
Once I believe in the middle '6Cs, and once _
^
tiiink in cha early '70s would be my bast recollection.
u
0.
0c you recall the reason for either of these
4
vxairs?
5
A.
Just routine.
6
j.
And by routine, what do you mean, 'would you
7
visit all Union Carbide facilities on some rotating basis?
3
A. '.Then it was convenient to do so, yes..
.
9
0.
Do you recall when you went to King City on
10
either of those visits what you did there?
il
A. I met with the physician and reviewed a bunch
;
12
of X-rays with him.. I went down to the plant and made a
13
plant tour. And I went out to the mine site and observed
14
some of the mining operations and I had an industrial
:
15
hygienist with me. Following the completion of our survey
16
we met with the management and gave them our opinions of
17
the status.
x 8
Q.
Do you recall what your opinions were of the
;
19
status on either occasion? -
20
A.
One thing that was of concern to us was the
:
21
ore pile, which was being allowed to dry out and becoming
22
rather dusty-^rvd-- we-- w-e-re concerned about that as a dust
23
hazard. And we were a bit concerned about certain
.
.
24
maintenance activities which were allowing some of the
25
ventilation equipment to deteriorate a little bit more than
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & AS?OCIATS . y-*. .
i
.rMimm-dlsl lilca to sea, so there wer 2 some leaks in
2
ventilation equipment. That's ny recollection cf out tv:o
..'tain con rams.
-
Q.
Did you recognize at the tine of the first
5
visit that asbestos dust could be in any way hazardous to
5
nunan hearth?
7
A. Yes, we know that.
1
Qh is that one of the things you were looking for
9
on the visit?
10
A.
Yes.
:
1 i
share any recognition at the tine of the
12
first visit that asbestos dust in some form and some dose
13
could cause cancer?
i4
A. .Well, we were concerned with the disease
15
asbestosis.
.
1 o
,,Q. At ,the time of the first visit in the
17
mid-1960s had you heard of the disease mesothelioma0
ia
A.
I really ca n't recall just exactly when I did
|
19
first hear of that disease. -
;
20
ffife,- :.Do;..you know when King City began, the King
|
21
City facility, began taking chest X-rays from employees?
;
22
. A. -- As far a s- I know day one.
23
Q.
Was that at your directive-5
24
A.
That was at that time the directive of Dr.
25
Nale who is the corporate medical director.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955.... A O * ; . ...
2
j A
5 6 l7 o `
9
10
U
12
13
14
15 16 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24
25
hp.-it was trio policy for chest X-rays of ..vpicy ass ut King City, wa s it an .\-ray or sons o_.aar
.-ly recollection is it was annual.
0.
icy.'
A. q.
This was done by this outside doctor at Kina
Yes. viere chose annual chest X-rays of employees
.nen kept on file somewhere?
A. As far as I know, the doctor kept them.
q , . Did Union Carbide keep them anywhere?
A. No.
Q.
At any time up through 1979, or even after
hat time, if you are aware of it, do you know if any
picemiological study has been done of employees at the
;ing City facility? A. . I do n't believe so. q . ^pAtyb'"khow if there has been any screening or
review of X-rays other than on a case-by-case basis for
those employees?
-
A.
There was a time, I d o n 't remember exactly
when it was, but we did have a large number of X-rays
reviewed by -a-- speeda-list in reading X-rays for dust
exposure to make sure that the local people were not
missing anything.
Q.
Do you know when this was?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . {612) 922-1955^ .'
i
1*..
I reaallly can't recall.
2
w
Do you know wnor j this reading took nic e a J
j
A.
1 con': remember that either.
4
<
Do you remember who the expert was7
5
1 don't remember that either.
b
w
Do you recall if he was a so-called 3 reader7
7
* I believe that's why he was selected.
S
'
Q.
Do you now if no v/as a radiologist?
9
A.
I believe he was a radiologist.
:
1
10
Q.
Do you know where the records or reports or
;
11
findings of this screening would be located7
12
A.
do, I- do not.
13
W Do you know if any written report or findings
14
v/as aver prepared from that screening?
15
A.
I can't recall.
io
' Q.
Do you know at whose instance the screening
17
was done or whose request the screening was cone7
13
.
a.
I think it was done at the request of
19
personnel in the medical department, that is the Union
20
Carbide medical department.
21
' Q.
So the Union Carbide medical department at New
1
22
York?
23
A.
Yes.
24
.
Q*
Now, other than --
25
A.
Incidentally, I was not involved in that phase
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
' . ~ ^ V- ..-V- ;
1
>2 tames. I saw it from the side buz at that tins Or.
2
,ane was c o m g r.cst of the coverage of the Xing City
j
>porat ions.
4
1.
So this X-ray reading or screening or whatever
5
rou wane to call it would have been dona at the direction
u
if Or. Lana?
7
A.
Probably at Dr. Lane's request.
3
Q.
Do you know if Dr. Lane actually want out to
9
ling City to set things up or --
10
A.
1 don't remember that.
11
Q.
Is Dr. Lana still alive?
12
A.
Yes.
.
13
q . Is it he or she?
14
A. He.
15
Q. Is lie still at Union Carbide?
16
A. No, he is retired.
17
0. Do you know where he is located?
18
A. Bartiesvilie, Oklahoma.
19
ggi^y,-
.knv* why. this X-ray study of King City
20
employees was done?
21
A.
I think it was done just to give us a feeling
22
of. canfidencfr_Ln---tbe-- fact that we had not observed any
23
problems in the people and we just wanted to make sure that
24
we weren't being suckered into a state of complacency.
25
o.
Was it done because the Union Carbide medical
jf-
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .
- \
JsAidtA.
u^p^rta-ent at z.~z cime rucog.iise J that exposuro :o
S '7
2 sib-2-scos case in. some dose ca u li causa disease?
j
.IR. J 3 IES: Dbjecc to ine forn cf. tu,j
*+ ju c u c i o n as cii`,u:.ienuiici .-u. You --un go u.e-- --n .. .;.isvcc >
5
Doctor.
A.
he knew chat before they ever started minina
7
asbestos. `
Wsxyy. Was thare a recognition at the time this X-ray
9
study was dune that exposure to asbestos could cause cancer,
10
a recognition at Union Carbide's medical department that
li
asbestos exposure could cause cancer?
12
A.
At the time that that review was done we knew
i 3
of Seiikoff's studies with regard to cancer and ashes*, as.
14
: .bias there a recognition at the Union Carbide
13
medical uepartment at the tine that X-ray study was done
10
tuat asbestos could cause mesothelioma?
17
A.
Yes.
13
Q.,,
Was that recognition gained from Dr.
19
Selikoff's work or from soma*other source?
20
A.
I would say that Dr. Selikoff's work was the
21
moving force behind the knowledge that there was an
22
association -between--asbestos exposure and cancer.
23
q . And bycancer would youincludemesothelioma'
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Now, the overseasdivisions of Union
Carbide,
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 - ^ ^ - A --
i
C lu cn ey hav 3 -^1 a lr cw n modi Cl 1 depart meat a or would ail
hygi m e -- stop there. Dia th overse as d ivisions of Union
J
Care id 3 ildVw :ae ir own medic al deparcm ant'5
A.
is t they did.
5
Q.
Jou 1 A quascions o coxico logy and hygi one it
6
overseas facilities be hancllad by those medical department:s
7
or would they ail come to Jew York"5
8
A.
This would be handled by those medical
9
departments with the Jew York operation being the source of
10
expert knowledge if they needed it.
il
Q.
Did the Jiagara Falls research facility of
12
Union Carbide have its own medical personnel at any time
12
while you were with the company?
14
A.
We did have a full time medical director at
15
the electro metalurgical group in Niagara Falls in 1955.
16
It goes back earlier than that. I guess the medical
17
director probably was hired about the same time I was in '4
18
and he stayed on at Niagara Falls Falls until maybe 1960.
19
Q.
Did he have anything to do with the asbestos
20
group at Union Carbide?
21
A.
Not that I recall.
22
Q. -- Was .-thr-a- anyone at the Union Carbide medical
23
department in New York City who had responsibility at one
24
time or another for asbestos related matters or for the
25
Union Carbide asbestos group?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES-
\
f i n ' QTO.iaic;^ '?
31
1
A. In the meui cai dspartnant?
2
C. Yes.
J
A ic would be Dr. banc.
4
d
Do you retail what period of ye ars Dr. Lane
5
uoult with that topic?
6
A.
Not specifically. I wouid say probably from
*i7
the late -- probably the last ten years that I was there,
6
about '63 to '79.
.
9
l3r 'Did 'the Union Carbide medical department in
10
New York City have a medical library?
11
A.
Nothing mere than the books that we ourselves
12
kept in our home. . .
13
Q.
Di^ it subscribe to any medical journals or
14
periocicals?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q. ' Do you recall which medical journals or
17
periodicals?
13
A,;, British Medical Journal was one, Journal of
19
Occupational Health, American Hygiene Medical Journal was
20
another, Archives of Industrial Health was another. We had
21
a complete set of the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and
22
Toxicology. -- l^a-lt--au-minute now. I will have to qualify an
23
answer I gave you earlier when you asked me did we have a
24
library, I had forgotten the fact, yes, we did have a
25
library. That's where we kept all of these journals and a
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
1
As a maitjr of fact, .I believe we bad both of
2
tbeui because the archives of Industrial Health, as I recall
j
was a continuation of tee Journal of Industrial Hygiene and
4
Toxicology.
5
Q.
how about tne publicationentitlo Ch est?
b
A nO
7
0.
How about the CanadienMedicalAssociation
3
Journal?
' 9
n
NO
10
Q.
The British Journal Cancer?
il
A.
cio.
12
Q.
The oublication entitled American Review of
13
Respiratory Disease?
14
A Jo.
15
Q.
The publication entitled Environmental
15
Rcsearcn?
17
A.
Jo.
13
How about the Annals of the New York Academy
19
of Sciences?
20
A.
I think we had some of those but not all of
21
them.
22
Q.
Do you -know if you had the issues dealing with
23
any of Dr. Selikoff's studies?
24
A.
I think we did.
25
. What was the purpose for maintaining this
KIRBY A . KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
ty
(612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 ^ ^ ^ * fit
i i
A.
library unci subscribing co z'.use ns
2
at the medical department cf Union Carbide?
,curni is
j
.A. JUNES: object on tne grounds cf
4
foundation. Go nosed anu answer.
5
:-i. dv.fere no e work.
6
Q.
knd were these used by yourself end the other
7
neuicai personnel at the medical ucpartment?
3
A. These and ether sources, yes.
9
`What were the other sources? Were there other
10
meuicai libraries that your department used-3
11
A. Yts.
12
Q. ,ihat were those?.
13
A.
New York Academy of Medicine Library. I guess
14
chat would be the primary other source for medical
15
references;
1 b
;,Q. Sid the Union Carbidemedical department,
17
during the years you were there from '55 to `79, do its own
13
research into either industrial hygiene or toxicological
19
issues? -
-
20
Yes, we had our own laboratory at Mellon
21
Institute in Pittsburgh.
22
Q. . --Now ,- before I get to that, other than at the
23
Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh, was there research
24
conducted within the medical department of Union Carbide
25
during the years you were there?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (61 2 ) 922-1 5
A.- Yes, on occasion we participated in research
cone at some other Locations.
Were any of these locations in chis country?
4
.4 Y e s .
5
Q.
jo you rocaii what they wars'
6
A.
One was the C U T , Chemical Institute of
7
Industrial Toxicology at Chapel Hill -- at Research
3
Triangle, Research Triangle in North Carolina. There was
9
some work done at some of the private consulting toxicology
10
laboratories in Illinois and I don't remember where the
1 i
others were.
12
C.
Now, was this research at these places
13
research actually done by Union Carbide medical personnel
14
or was this research commissioned by Union Carbide and done
15
by these outside sources?
1 o
A.
Commissioned by Union Carbide and done by the
17
outside people.
13
Q.
Now, did Union Carbide personnel do their own
19
research?
-
2 0
A. At the Mellon Institute.
21
q . And which Union Carbide personnel did research
22
at the Mellon-- Lrrstitru-tre in Pittsburgh?
23
A.
There was a staff of about 35 people who
24
worked at the chemical hygiene fellowship at the Mellon
25
Institute in Pittsburgh. At that time it was headed by Dr.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 */,
1
`tv..11'*
Junior. Cecond in command was Dr. C. ?.
1
C^rpjicer, and an inhalation specialist Urbocno Doazir.i,
J
-na statistician, Carol! Weil. i don't remember the oth.
H
.lUtayS
Z> *' During wnat years did Union Carbide conduct
o
r^saaren at cae .-lalion Institute?
7 A. From about 1938 through the present. Pc.it a
8
minute, a sheuian't say through the present any core
9
because i gu<=ss just about the time I left they severed
10
their relationship with Mellon and they maintained a
11
laooratory as their own corporate toxicology laboratory.
12
Q.
And is t
13
in exi s fence?
14
A.
To the b
15
Ci './here is
16
n*
I am not
17
outside of Pittsburgh or up in Weschester County, how vor'
13
Ui.
I have forgotten the name of the olace now.
19
Q.
Was medical research commissioned by Union
20
Carbide at any facilities overseas during the years you
21
worked at Union Carbide?
22
A* -- I-- think,-- I am not certain about this, but I
23
believe that they had one study conducted by a British
24
research laboratory but I do not rccamber the name of the
2 5
laboratory.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES "
iei-M Q'?7-'I Qgt'
-
1 2
"v 4 5
6
7 . 3
9
10 11 12
i J 14 15 i6 17 IS 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
0.
We wiii maybe taik about that a little later.
Let me back up to unoc.ier topic. Lot me ask you a little
biw about th.o ..alion Institute because I i o n 1 c knew much
about it. Is this part of Carnegie Mellon University or is this another institution?
A.
Mellon Institute was an organization four, led
by the Mellon interests as a independant research cantor
run by the Mellon Institute in supporting a number of
different fellowships. Various corporations would contract
with the Mellon Institute for a fellowship; for example,
Union Carbide had a chemical fellowship there where a lot
of tae basic research in chemical processes was being done,
and this was prior to the formation of the chemical hygiene
fellowship. And when in 1938 Union Carbide decided they
had to learn more about the toxicology of their products,
they established what they called the chemical hygiene
fellowship. And since they already had had chemical
fellowships at Mellon, they established this chemical hygiene fellowship at Mellon.
Q.
And what years did Union Carbide have the
chemical hygiene fellowship at Mellon Institute?
A.
As long as Mellon Institute existed. And
sometime, I would guess sometime in the '60s, the Mellon
Institute was taken over by -- well, let me put it this way, that the Mellon interests were taken over by Carnegie
KIRBY A . KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES.
16121
,
X1
University and i: that cine was forbad
2
Uni vers icy.
3
lor.
d. Okay.
4
a . '2he Instituce people and activities then tell
5
under the umbrella of Carnegie Mellon University. \nd they
o
ou^y_-c tnera up until the late `7Js or very early '30s when
7
-aroide deciaec, because of administrative problems with
o
the University, to withdraw their fellowship and establish
9
taeir own laboratories.
10
Q.
i;ow, the Union Carbide chemical hygiene
11
fellowship, was that a fellowship that was always filled by
12
Union Carbide's personnel' or would that be open to others'5
13
All the people that worked there were ---- this
14
was a peculiar situation. They were paid by the Mellon
15
Ins witute or Carnegie Mellon University, but they had all
1 o
the rights and benefits of Carbide employees so that we
17
always considered- them as Carbide employees.
13
-
2.
And did Carbide provide the fellowship funds
19
chat were paid out through the University?
20
A. That's correct.
21
Q. 3o the actual reimbursements for these people
22
came through Carbide or directly through the University"5
23
A. Correct.
24
0. And during the years thatthe industrial
25
hygiene fellowship was in existence at the Mellon Institute
KIRBY A. KENNEDY k AS.StOC1.I>ATES <*<
there always ono fellow or were there son.tinos noc',oodv 3 S '
2
or sennet inos more chan one or hew hid z\\a t wor* 7
3 A. ,vei^, ; guess there were always a let of
4
reixows. henry -rath was the administrative fellow, and :
5
P. Carpenter was the assistant administrative fellow, and
o
cne others I guess would just be classified
fellows.
7
U how, c. P. Carpenter, is that Charles ?.
3
Carpenter?
`
9
A.
Right.
10
Q. How about Edwin R. Kinkead, was he a fellow7
11
A. Kinkead came along later. I don't know what
i2
his status was.
13
Q.
Do you know if ne ever held the Union Carbide
14
industrial nygiene fellowship at any tine7
15
A. I don't know if he was ever classed as a
16
i. el low there or not. He may have been. I don't recall.
17
C. Was he kind of a lower echelon researcher?
13
A. He was not one of the top guys.
19
Q.
I assume that the fellows had staffs of
20
technicians or researchers or whatever who worked for them7
21
A. Yes.
22
Q.
So everyone who worked there would not
23
necessarily be a fellow, is that correct?
24
A.
That's correct.
25
Q. Do you remember, in any event, that Edward
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-l$55
a1
Kir.kead wc:.<-ja for soma of the follows at the Union Darbi ii
4
incustri_i hygiene fellc.vship-5
J
A. - won't know what Kir.kead did.
*.
c. How about 'Jrtoano Pozzani, vis he a Onion
5
Carbide industrial hygiene felloe?
u
A. Yos.
7
J.
How about Charles C. Haun, do you recall him-7
3
A.
Yes, linen was one of the later guys that tiro
9
in in the middle '6 Us probably.
10
Q.
How about John M. King?
1 i
A.
Also.
12
Q.
2 a '.as also under that fellowship-7
13
A. He was in the fellowship, yes.
14
Q. Now, I am going to get into this a little
15
later but I wanted to ask you now, in one of the reports
lo
issued by the Mellon Institute it has attached a mailing
17
list and we are going to look at this a little later, but
18
what I wanted to ask you is it talks about what saens to be
19
different medical department and it says Number 4,, Dr. C.
2 0 Dernehl. Was your department called Department 4? i
!
21
A. No, it was on the fourth floor of the building
!
22
Q. Actually I think in this particular case it
23
may mean that you got four copies?
24
A.
That's also possible.
1
25
,hj;;Let me give you some other names, `here is an
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (KM) 922-1955 .
1
Hull. I don't knew if is ne a doctor.
2
A
V,-3 IS .
^/o
w UdS he in your departme at?
-r
k.
No, he wX3 Z.he me dical dir actor c che plant
5
in South Citarlas ton for a numb or of yea rs and then in the
last :five , six, eight years he was 1 ist ed as the medical
7
director of the cnemi cals diLvi s ion.
3
Q.
//iters would he be located?
9
A.
South Charleston.
10
Q.
Did they have their own medical department at
II
Sou th Charle ston?
12
A.
Yes, they did.
13
a.
That's Nest Virginia?
14
k Yes.
:
15
a.
Is there a Union Carbide plant there of some
16
sort?
17
A.
A very large plant in South Charleston.
13
Q.
Does that have a name?
19
A.
South Charleston plant.
20
Q.
How about Dr. R. E. Joyner?
21
A.
Dr. Joyner took my place at Texas City when I
22
went to New York.
23
0.
During the 1960s was he located in Texas City
24
do you know?
25
A.
Part of the time. He left sometime in the '60s
KIRBY A. KENNEDY t .ASSOCIATES
fc yn
oee
. - -*-!
ime nouical Oircc:or for 'hall Oil.
.
Hcw aL-ou; Or. A. J. Ss:: con'
ila w^s tne nodical director of tue chsnic-is
4 plane at Institute, West Virginia.
5 j
0-
i
3 I Or. F. .
That's the name I was thinking of.
ford?
How about
A.
iledfo r d .
. d
0 . He may not be a doctor, F. E. Medford'
9
A.
1 tr.ink he is. He was after my time, :
10
belisv a .
11
w
Do you know where he was located?
12
A.
Jo.
li
Q.
Was he within Union Carbide somewhere'
14
A.
I am not sure.
15
Q.
Do you know where the research and development
lo. department .library was located?
17
A. South Charleston, West Virginia.
13
Q. How about N. H. Katcham?
19
`
A.
He was the chemical division chief industrial
20
hygienist.
21
Q. He was where, South Charleston?
22
A. South Charleston.
2 j
MR. JONES: Would this be a good time to
24
take a brief break?
25
MR. BROWNSON:. I think it would.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955,
1
(At chis time a brier recess was taken
Lf Z
2
3Y AR. BAGWdJO.I:
3
You n.'ntionea earlier, Or. Dsrnenl, that the
~r chest X-rays of workers at King City were done at day one,
5
do yea lean day one of production at King City'
A. At the tine they were hired.
7
Q.
Does that go back to the time that King City
i
Or. started production?
9
A.
That would be about the time that the first
10
people were hired.
li
Q.
When was that, do you remember, that
12
production started?.
.
1 j
A. I don't remember.
14
C*
Do you recall it being around 1963-5
15.
A.
The best I could say it would probably be
16
sometime in the early '60s.
17
q . Jow, was there a policy among Union Carbide
16
plants elsewhere, other than King City, wharefor Union
19
Carbide facilities that employees have annual chest X-rays-5
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
Where else?
22
A.
All of them.
23
Q.
When did that policy begin?
24
A.
I would say probably in the early '4 0 s .
25
Q.
Do you know if Union Carbide at any time
KIRBY A. KENNEDY t ASSOCIATES. (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 S 5 ^ . . ' j ^ ^ .
X
instituted a policy wacroin it would advise its ruse oners
.X .of dooestos m a t c.wir workers ouu.it to hove annua I H m s -
w
X-rays?
4
5
OdC.N ?
IK. uJHES: Could you road the question
o
it tnrs rime m e requested portion of the
7
cranscript was read aloud by the Court
3
Reporter. )
9
HR. JOilES: Thank you.
13
A.
I don't recall that Carbide ever advised any
11
of m e i r customers on che specific steps that should bo
12
followed in protecting their people against the hazards, of
13
a material is the best day way I can express it, which in
14
effect says that we did not tell -- I do not recall that we
15
told people specifically that their people should have a
1 o
chest X-ray at regular intervals, although it is entirely
17
possible that customers may have been told this by sales
IS
and marketing people with whom they dealt, that as far as
19
the medical department is concerned we did not issue m y
20
directives to customers that they should nave an annual
21
X-ray on their people.
22
Q.
Did the medical department issue any
23
directives to sales and marketing people that customers
24
should be advised about annual chest X-rays for their
25
workers?
. '
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612> <>22-1955 V -'4iy*:
1
wo: chat I know of.
2
0.
No w, are you familiar with the OSHA stnr.darf.
j
concerning asbestos in the work place which took affect in
4
ij 7l4mvj
5
A.
I an haraly familiar with it. I think I read
6
through it cnc= back wnen it first came out.
7
0.
I am not asking you at this point if you know
8
wnut it says, I am just asking you if you know that OSHA in
9
1972 issued it's standard for asbestos in the work place-3
10
A.
I know the issue, but I don't know the date.
11
Q.
Do you know if the Union Carbide medical
12
department ever issu.ed any material for customers telling
x 3
customers that their workers should take any kind of
14
precautions against asbestos dust before the OSHA standard
15
came out?
'
16
A.
Carbide issued certain materials that were
17
available to customers that would involve precautions that
jl8
should be taken with regard to their employees but I do not
19
recall what specific wording or specific precautions were
20
involved in those documents.
21
Q.
Do you know if any of these documents dealt
22
specifically with the topic of asbestos dust?
23
A.
I think there were documents of that: nature.
24
Q.
How, I am talking about the time period before
25
the OSHA standards came in. We know there were after the
KIRBY A. KENNEDY &.ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1355 I-.SiSSfe-?
*
a C ailUaf 1.
<-/5
lR. JONEd: I will object on the basis h
J
s^.i.d me u i t ..no.; when .no 03:1.4 standard naornue :n. 7 .n
4
you give aim a date?
5 'HZ 'WITNESS: lie did, `7 2 .
b
s r o i a -isOU:
7 S. Juet so my question is clear, let me start
' d
over. >-cnlining ourselves to the time period before t h -
9
asbestos OShA standard came out.
.
10
A.
All right.
11
0.
Do you know if in that time period Union
12
..arbide issued any literature or notice to customers as to
1 b
now to pioto-cr their employees from asbestos dust?
14
^ would have to say that they did not issue,
15
to tne best of.my knowledge, information on how the
16
employees were to be protected but I am reasonably sure
17
tnac taey would nave issued information on what the
16
employee should be protected against. How the employee
19
provided that protection was up to the employer, not Union
20
Carbide.
21
Q.
Do you know what form these directives or
22
these notices took?
23
A.
iiy best recollection would be they would be in
24
product bulletins and material safety data sheets, if there
25
was one on asbestos at that time, and in toxicology studies,
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASS9 CIATES ' '(612) 922-19.55 ;-`-JS.tV .,
1 Q. x am going co snow you v/har ha3 been i<3 V c?
2
Derr.ehl Deposicin Exhibit 9, it's a doouasnt tape's
3
-ntitied "Union Carbide Material Safety Dita Sheet". le
4
^n^iu tne type of sheet you just referred co'
5
A. .That 's the type of a sheet I am refer
6
0.
Okay.
7
A 3ut it' s incomplete.
.3
Q.
Because there is only one page there?
9
A.
That's right.
10
G.
Let me show you what's been marked as
li
Deposition Exhibit i0 and ask you if this is a ccnolet-
12
copy of that document? _
1 j
MR. GOLDBERG: Just for the record, Bob,
14
what is the title?
15
THE WITNESS: "Refind Chrysotile
16
Asbestos, Product Specifications, Descriptions, Uses."
17
A.
What is the date on this?
13
2.
There is a September '72 date up on the top.
19
-
A.
I have not seen this material safety data
20
sheet. It was not made in my department.
21
Q.
Well, the questions I am asking right now, Dr.
22
Dernehl, are not about the contents of this particular
23
material safety data sheet, I am just asking if this is the
24
form or the type of material safety data sheet that' you
25
referred to earlier?
*
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES qe;e; ' 4 ;
X
J -.1T 5 o 7 . 6 9 10
11 12
1 j 14 15 18 17 18
iy
20 21 22
23 24 25
`nis 1 3 a version or revision of the material
-a onset tn-t Wo used for other products.
w"\
do you xr.ow when the first
Sxlcc:S wore issued ;/itn respect to
szes by Union Carbide?
A.
ho, I aon't remember when.
Q.
Did tn-e medical department
wi.h providing the information on the material safety data onsets which dealt with Calridia asbestos'
A.
If the material safety data sheet was prepared
m our medical department then we had an input into it. As
x inaicated, I have not seen this particular material
safety data sheet befor3 . It was issued, apparently, by
the asbestos people or the mining and metals people beciuse
it came out of Niagara Falls. And I d o n 't recall aver
having seen it before.
'
Q.
And you are referring now to Dernehl Exhibit
1 0 , fox' the record?
A.
Yes, sir.
`
Q.
Now, you mentioned earlier that customers were
not told what steps to take to protect their workers from
asbestos dust but they were told what the workers should be
protected from, is that a fair statement?
A.
Th a t `s correct.
,
Q.
And look at the particular material safety
V 7
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
X1
safety data sheet said about asbestos?
H 8
2
A.
7 ii.'3 t of ali, I d o n 1 z. recall wneth-er there s
one prior to cnis date and I would not recall what it so
4
without sauino tha document.
5
0 . '701/, we had earlier been talking about ./hat
6
notices Onion Carbide gave to their customers about
7
protection of customer's workers from dust. Other than the
a
notices, which are headed material safety data, such as we
a
see in Exhibit L0 , were there other types or forms of
10
notices that were issued by Union Carbide to customers"5
li
A.
Product bulletins would be one. This is a -
12
this is one type of a product bulletin. There were
13
probably others that were put out that would have made
14
reference to tha hazards of the product and precautions
15
that should be taken in handling. Another one, of course,
16
is che label types which is put on the products which also
17
gave precautions and warnings.
13
U*
I am going to show you now what has been
19
marked as Dernehl Deposition^ Exhibit 15 and ask is you if
20
this is a Union Carbide information bulletin of the type
21
that you just mentioned?
22
A. -- This-- is-- one such bulletin, yes.
23
2.
And my question is, look at the first page of
24
that exhibit, it's got this heading at the top that says,
25
"Asbestos Product Information Bulletin."
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES. ."
<fs'0 \ q 77-1 TrV X w.-
*
.
Vi
i
Yus.
2
"yp- cr heading that thase proluct
_/
xnc raiucion rui_ct..ns .ouic carry, cha ones that you heve
4
.enticticc?
5
aone o tnor, yes.
o
V
d j foca?
-i-va you ever sean that particular handino
3
A.
: really don't recall.
9
Q.
On the right corner of tha heading there is
10
some kind of a logo that appears to be a jumble of fibers.
ii
Do you know what that is, wnat that portrays?
12
MR. JONES: Object to the
13
characterication by Couns ; cut go ahead and answer.
14
BY MR. BROWNSOd:
15
Q.
Do you know what the logo up on the upcar
16
right-hand corner of the exhibit portrays?
17
A.
I am sure I don't know. All I can think of is
18
it probably refers to asbestos fibers.
19
Q-
Do those look to you like a magnified picture
20
of asbestos fibers?
21
MR. JONES: Objection.
22
A. - 1 am sure I don't know.
2 3'
sQ.
Have you ever observed Calridia asbestos under
24
the microscope?
25
A.
Yes. I looked at some of the samples
KIRBY A. KENNEDY &.ASSOCIATES
5~o
1
coxicctea by our industrial hygienists They did not lock
2
iike m a t .
j
b t.n-u did t.ney loo'< like, tne ones the.t vcu svw'7
4
n .cli, rirst of all, tney Were very short
j
dicers, not long drawn out fibers, but they were very short
o
fibers. Tney weren't single strands but they tended to be
i
sort of
now uould I best describe it? You could see
s
chat tney seated to be reads up of bundles of very snail
y
fibers of unequal length, that's the best way I can
10
describe it.
li
Q.
Are you rani liar with the different types of
12
asbestos fibers?
1.3
A.
Joe really. I know that chrysotile generally
i4
is considered to be the long fiber asbestos.
15
Q.
The long or the short?
.
1G
A. Long.
17
0. Long. Okay.
13
A.
It is the type of asbestos commonly used ir.
IS
weaving the ropes and the mat and such because of its long
20
fiber characteristics.
21
Q. Are you familiar with the term amphibole
22
fibers?
___________
2u
A.
I know it's a type of asbestos, but other than
24
that I know no more about it.
25
a. Are you familiar with the term serpentine
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
1
nears?
2
A . Jc-rp encin , -o the best of ny knowledge, is
J simply a mineral claasiz Cation. Beyond tbit I don't knc
4
"*Y^*ti.*g abo u c
5
n
*'no xogo on Exhibit 15 in the upper rickc-hr.
6
corner, whit type of asbestos fibers boos that look like
7
you, bas =u on your own knowledge?
. 3
iR. JONES: Object to the form cf the
9
question. Leek of foundation. He has already stated he
10
doesn't know what those* are.
1
.1R. PoLK: I want the record to ref lee
12
that tne witness was about to answer the question.
12
HR. SRONNEON: Ha also stated he iidr.'
14
chinx that was Calridia fiber. I an asking him what he
15
thinks it is.
16
-A* - I would say it would be a long fiber
17
chrysctile.
18
0.
But not Calridia-5
19
A.
No way.
.
20
Q.
Do you know if Union Carbide mined any
21
chr/sotile other than that cut of the Calridia deposit at
22
King City at-- any time?
23
A.
Not that I know of.
24
Q.
Do you know if Union Carbide sold any fiber
25
other than that, the Calridia fiber from King City? .
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
~ '1612) 922-1955
h. :
A.
i nave no idea.
*.
I guess what I an wondering is do you <r.cw why
the lego on the product informacin bulletin, such as
4 . Exhibit i5, would show a long chrysotile fiber that wasn't
5
J u n d r i a that Union Carbide d i d n 't mine or sell such fiber0
5
MR. JONES: Object to the form of the
/ question, lacking foundation.
3
A.
I would have no way of knowing why the art
9
department of Carbide did what they did.
10
0.
Are you familiar with the term blue asbestos0
11
have you ever heard that used?
12
A.
Yes. As I recall, that referred to asbestos
i J
that they mined in South Africa, crocidolite.
14
C.
I don't know. I am asking you.
'
1 5
A.
I think. I am hot sure.
16
.Q. Ok a y .
17
A.
But 1 believe it refers to the asbestos mined
13
in South Africa.
19
Q.
To the best of your knowledge that is
20
crocidolite fiber?
21
A. To my recollection.
22
0 . -- Have.you ever heard of a brand of asbestos
2 j
known as Johns-Manvilie Ultrabestos blue asbestos?
24
A. I have heard of Johns-Manville, beyond that
2 5
nothing.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
f
>r'*c ,Ji ,,&.
2.
Do you know if Joh hJ - M v w i lie min id any
53
2
asbestos from the Icali.ng'i uaposit -.round Xing Cit/ 7
A.
I believe they hud a air.a maybe 30 miles -cdst
-t of King Cicy. Unless 1 an wrong, I think it was at a to'-n
j
culled Coalings.
o
Q.
Do you know what type of asbestos
7
Johns-Manviile mined at that facility?
G
A.
i have no id a.
9
Q.
Are you aware of Union Carbide ever
10
commissioning any research or studies into the toxicity or
'
11
toxicology of the Coalinga or Calridia fiber7
12
A.
Yes, we did some .work on it.
13
Q.
And do you recall some wort; ever being done by
i n . a or. Artnur Longer, who was affiliated with Mount Sinai
15
Hospital, as far as analyzing that fiber?
I u
A.
That doesn't ring a bell.
17
(At this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit
lb
45 was marked for identification by the
19
Court Reporter.-)
20
3Y MR. BROiiNSON:
21
Q.
I am going show show you a document which the
;
-
i
22
reporter has marked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 45 and
;
s
l
23
just ask, if you take a moment, you don't have to read the
24
whole thing but just look it over.
25
MR. JONES: For the record, I would
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
X
ocject to the exhibit on the grounds that it c o n t e m n
2
higmig hti ng by Counsel.
X
.1.1. 3RC..'NcCU: You ere right, it; does
4
contain Highlighting.
5
(At this tine a brief recess was taken.)
o
BY MR. 3R0JN30N:
l
w.
Doctor, let's go back on the record mere. I
6
iiava shown you what has been narked as Derr.ehl Dxnibit 45
9
and you have now had a chance to review that briefly, is
i
10
that right?
il
A.
Right.
12
Q.
Do you recognize any of the authors of that
i3
particular article?
14
A.
Ho, I d o n 't.
15
Q.
Langer, Wolff,Rohl andSelikoff3
10
A. Selikoff.
17
Q. That's the same Dr. Selikoff you were speaking
13
of before?
19
A. That's right. .
20
Q. Do you recognize thepublication? This was
\
21
published in the Journal of Toxicology andEnvironmental
22
h e a l t h . ----------- -
2j
,-lR. LAURA: Are you asking if he recalls
24
that journal?
25
MR. BROWNSOW: Just the journal, right.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . , 922-1955
55
t'G *`Y '=c o h 3 c:ion is :aat this is - c u r e d 2
imat deiikofr :nc sane of 'n s ocooie start'd ini 2 ho- 1 t
..'ink i.e jvor subscribed io chat. Ti - Do you know if you .uvj ever sssr. the ''jr*'^
5
h*
I d o n 't think so.
o
C.
Now-, in this particular or del s , which '.-/os
/
published in 1973, there is sons --
3
;ii<. JONES: For the record, why don't
9
you read the name of the article?
10
MP.. 3R0Vr;I3QN: The name of the article
il
is, "Variation cf Properties of C'nrysotiie Asbestos
12
Subjected to hilling."
i j
3Y A.\. 3RCUN3ON:
14
Q.
And in this particular article there is a
15
study being done of Union Carbide Calridia RC 144 fiber,
i 6
did you see that reference in here?
17
A.
I saw that.
id
Q.
That's at Pag 1 1975. First of all, do you
19
know what Calridia AG 144 fiber is?
20
A. I do not.
i
21
Q. It's described in the article as c'nrysotiie.
j
22
Does that seem right_to you?
I
2 j
A. If they describe it as c'nrysotiie, I assume
;
!I
24
it's chrysotile.
j
1
2 5
'
Q.
Have you ever heard of this particular study
KIRBY A KENNEDY & ..ASSOCIATES
ei*n t m . ! a U *
'-V
.
i
which is ciescr ibuu in this article, Exhibit 45
2
7.. ho, I ha vs not.
5G
w
0. Do yea know who commi ss icnec tuet stucy1
4
h. I have no idea.
j
0.
And do you know if Union Carbide aver
6
comnissionou studies similar to that where Salieri
7
asbestos fiber was analyzed for its toxicity0
MR. JONES: You said commissioned0
9
MR. BROWHSON: Yes.
10
A.
Was analyzed for its toxicity, yes, .we aid
11
some work at Mellon.
12
I
Q.
Other than studies at Mellon, do you know of
13
any other studies that Union Carbide commissioned on that
14
topic?
15
A. Not that I recall.
16
Q. 'Are you aware of any other studies that anyone
17
has done, whether they were commissioned by Union Carbide
13
or not, on the toxicity of the Calridia fiber?
19
A. Calridia fiber,-no.
20
Q.
Now, you mentioned the Mellon study and I want
4m > m'.
to show you next a document that's been marked as Dernehl
22
Deposition Exhi-bit 7 and it's entitled "Mellon Institute,
23
Special Report, The Fibrogenic Potential of Asbestos
24
Products via Intraperitoneal Injection in Guinea Pigs, Rats
25
and Rabbits," and ask you to look' at that one.
.
KIRBY
A.
KENNEDY \n ^
&4rtHArSr; S*O. CI .^ACTS VaE, tSa..
.
X
Or. D-.--rn.anl, : wc j1 d. like
ask vou
2
guest ions about -chis p-rtijul^r document, which is
51
j
D-pos- 1 ion Da .libit /. .f you look it th 3 cover oage, firG1-
4
uf -ill, chi appears to be report by the Mellon Inst-' -"ut '
5
is that n g n t ?
j
A. T h a t 's correct.
7
Q* *s this che report thatyou justreferred
to
3
about the study about t.ie toxicity of the Calriiia asbis tes
9
A. Yes.
10
v.
And what is the date of it?
11
A. 1966.
12
w.
And tnis was a study done by Mellon Institute
13
personnel '.-/no were Union Carbide employees, is that ricv t7
14
A.
Right.
,
1.5
Q.
And it indicates on the back that you receive!
IS
it appears like four copies of this. If you go to the very
17
last page it snows, the distribution list.
13
A. Uh~hun.
14
Q. Would you agree-with me that based uponwhat
20
it says there that you, in fact, received four copies cf
21
this report?
22
A. -- Ya-s , -- -
25
0.
Do you know of any other studies done by the
24
tlellcn Institute done on the toxicity of Calidria asbestos
25
other than the one you are looking at, Deposition Exhibit 7 ?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612 > 92 2-1955
i
i\.
Taut, I bar ieve, is the only one I car.
-i
Do you reme moor why the t study was tone
J
^
Yes.
4
u Ana why was that?
5
4
The current knowledg a in the middle ar.d
6
'50s wnen this was done held that the fibers that were
7
active in reusing asbestosis ware the long fibers and that
a
was the reason why the air sampling standard at that time
9
limited the counting to fibers of ten microns or longer
10
because it was felt that these were the fibers that were of
il
significance and that you had to be protected against.
12
Sometime about this time the re.developed information that
13
there was a form of silicosis, which is a disease not
14
widely different from asbestosis, that there was a form of
15
silicosis which was rapidly fatal and was produced by ultra
16
fine particles of silica. It was first observed in the
17
mining process somewhere in the United States where, for
ia
reasons unknown, a group of miners started working in an
I
19
area of high purity quartz and they developed a very
20
rapidly progressive and very rapidly fatal silicosis, which
21
was something totally unknown before.
22
-- Short-1y after that in Germany there was some
23
work done with a ultra fine silica powder, I believe it
24
was -- went by the name of degusa silica, which was a micro
25
fine silica powder and which produced the same sort of
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .. .... .
s ?
i
lessons. in th3 ./or.sirs exposa d to it as w=.s s jsn in t h s
J
group of workers in this count."/ who developed - rtoi'ly
J
progressiva and fatal silicosis. Jince this involved a
4
scaling down or particle sine, we were conrerned rV on
5
whether or not the snort fiber Calridia asbestos night have
b
a sw-niiar reaction in people as did the micro fine s.Iict;
7
in other words, wore we going to be faced with a rapidly
3
progressive and possibly rapidly fatal fora of asbestesis
9
in people who were overexposed to this very short fiber ana
10
very fine fiber type of asbestos that we were getting at
11
Coalings.
_
12
Q.
Okay.
i j
A.
\7hich is the reason why we asked for these
14
studies and to try to coapere the action of these fibers in
1 5
animals as compared to a standard long fiber or reasonably
10
long fiber Johns-.lanvilie product.
17
Q.
Jo would it be fair to say that as a result of
IB
your knowledge of hazards with silica you became concerned
1
19
at some point in the mid-160s that the Calridia asbestos
1
20
could have similar effects in humans?
'
21
A. Could be rapidly?
j
22
0 . -- -eo--- -- --
|
'
!
23
A. Rapidly progressive and rapidly fatal, yes, we
24
were concerned with that possibility.
25
Q.
As a result of that, you commissioned this
i
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
-
i
<*22-19*5.. 7
-
scuciy by tna ilelion institute?
(o O
A.
That'3 correct.
.
. MR. JONZS: The study reflected in
4
Exnibit 7.
1
5
MR. 2R0WNS0M:
0
r* \
was your concern only for the workers ct the
7
Kir.9 City fa cility?
w
A The concern would be to anybody that was
9
exposed to the material, the workers at the Xing City
10
facility certainly but anybody else who handled the
11
material lik Swiss.
12
Q.
Would that include workers at customer planes
13
who are handling the material?
14
A . Certainly.
15
Q.
Are you familiar with a gentleman by the name
16
of Robert G. V/oolery?
17
A.
Robert G. Woolary9
13
Q.
W-o-o-l-e-r-y.
15
A.
No, I am afraid not. Not at this stage.
20
Q.
He at one time was a group leader of .product
21
development and technical services at the mining and metal
22
division of Union Carbide in Tuxedo, New York.
23
A.
I may have had contact with him, but that was
24
so long ago that I wouldn't remember it.
25
Q.
I want to show you what has been marked as
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6i2)
M
X.
D-^rneh^. dapersi cion exhibit 1 end ask you this
/
is tnis a publication put out by the Union Car
Coroorac ion?
4
5
liUUO 9
I?.. HARVARD: .7:140 v;ds the ixhibic
u
MR. SRO'.vNSON: Exhibit 1.
7
MR. JONES: For the record, the dcoumenc
d
is entitled, "The Effaces of Chrysotile Asbestos Additions
9
to Ceiluicsic Paper" by Hobart G. Woolerv.
10
A.
Well, this was a paper apparently prepared by
11
Robert G. Woolary, but vhat happened to the document I am
12
sure I don't know. .
13
MR. GOLDBERG: '.hat is the dat. e or.
14
THE 'TITHES3 : There is no dace chat
1 5
know. At this point in cine it had not been accepted
IS
publication. Tnis i s .apparently a copy that he kept of
17
something he did submit for publication which nay or may
13
net have been published.
19
BY MR. DROWNSOtl:
20
Q.
You have no idea if this was sent to customers t i
21
however?
!
22
A.
If it.was published, interested customers
i
23
night be provided with a reprint of the paper.
24
Q. Well --
'
I
25
A. I don't know that that happened. I an merely
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
'
/ ^ \ r* *r\p'ff "
^3J1*^ 9
X1
remember the request for support of the analytical studies
2
o.
would you agree --
.j
A.
The rest of the document I do not remember
4
5
O Would you agree with me that chis document
discusses toxicology issues concerning Union Curb-,ie
/
asbestos at the 3ritish subsidiary?
O
A.
Without reading the whole document I couldn't
9
agree to that, no.
10
Q.
Well, let's look at Page 4, Paragraph 1.0, the
11
introduction reads, "Union Carbide U.K. Limited has been
12
promoting the sale of Coalinga asbestos for just over two
13
years. During this time, the public has become
14
increasingly aware of the considerable health risks
15
associated with the use of this material. So far, over 20
lo
potential customers have raised the issue and have
17
requested an assurance that Carbide's material will not be
18
a source of danger to their employees." Wow, would you
19
agree that those statements uraise industrial hygiene and
20
toxicology issues about the use of Union Carbide asbestos
21
in England?
22
________ JONES:
Object again to the form of
23
the question. The foundation is not set. Unless you give
24
him a chance to read the entire document he can't answer
25
the question.
# . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
(pj
TA. 2R0WNS0N: I an asking the question
baa ad upon the statements I just read.
MR. J U E C : Based upon two isolated
4
statements Iron the document?
o
MR. 3ROMMSON: Yes.
o
MR. JONES: Sane objection.
/
A.
'Well, apparently this first paragraph
lnaicotes that custoners in England raised some questions
9
about the hazards of asbestos and it further follows in the
:
xO
next paragraph to say that some of these concerns were
II
answered by materials sent from the New York office and the
12
Asbestos Toxicology Report, which you showed me earlier,
13
and that these reports had gone part way in alleviating
14
some of the concerns that existed.
i
-X C->
Q.
Well, based upon the three paragraph:; entitled
!
lo
"Introduction" that we. have just looked at on Page 4 of 24
;
17
of this report, wouldn't you agree with ne that this
discusses industrial hygiene and toxicology issues'5
!
19
MR. JONESn Again, same objection.
:
[
20
Characterization of the document which the witness did not
21 write, the document speaks for itself.
!
22
A. -- ,7elX,--a.5-1 stated before, on the basis -- I
2 J
can only say that on the basis of these initial paragraphs
24
it is suggested that the subsequent contents of this
25
document would have something to say about the hazards
*
.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ,
.
assoc rated with th e use
isDescos.
(O V
2
d . And is tchh-aitc not the type of inforr.it ion ;.,'hi:n
j
would JCliii to you in the
4
A.
I have already indicated that the only thine
5
that I re.-ne.nber about this document is -- at this tire the
6
onxy thing I remember is the request for support for the
7
analytical studies. 1 do not recall the rest of the report.
3
Q.
Maybe .ny question isn't clear. I am not
y
asking you if you remember this particular document, I am
10
asking you isn't this document of the type that would come
11
co your attention because it contains toxicology and
12
industrial health issues? .
i 5
.a . It would come to my attention.
14
Q. Mow, do you know what they are referring to in
15
the third paragraph in the introduction where they say,
1 &
"Carbide's replies have been based upon two communications
17
set by New York office on March 22nd 19o6, and October 7th,
13
19 oo"?
19
A.
I have no idea what they said.
20
0*
Do you have any recollection of being informed
21
of the work of Newhousa and Thompson at the London hospital
22
that's talked about-- in-Paragraph 2 ?
23
A.
No, I do not.
24
Q.
Do you ever remember hearing about problems
25
wich dock workers in London handling Union Carbide asbestos,
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
`J
unload it from ships?
G?S~
2
A.
i remember a taring about that, yts.
w
Q.
Do you know who you heard that from3
4
A.
I hoard that by word of mouth in the -'curs : of
5
dust generai discussions.
o
And do you know what steps Union Carbide rock,
7
r -ny, to alleviate tne fears of those dock workers?
d
bo, I do not.
9
Q*
will you look on Page 5 of the report-3
10
Paragraph 2.2 is entitled "Paper," and I would ask you to
il
look at that paragraph.
12
A.
The first paragraph?
Id
Q.
`./ail, the whole section about the -- Paragraph
14
2 . 2 about paper.
15
-IP. JONES: Bob, to avoid interrupting
IS
you rater on, -wcurd you accept a continuing objection to
17
subsequent discussions of various paragraphs isolated from
18
tue report without giving him an opportunity to read the
19
wnoie report?
_
2u
MR. B R O W S O N : Well, I don't like that
21
objection because I am going to have him read each section
22
that i ask him...about,. .
2.3
MR. POLK: Counsel, you are representing
24
by that objection or the request for a continuing objection
25
that this witness has not reviewed this report before his
KIRBY A. KENNEDY fc,ASSOCIATES . .. . .^ . < .~ .r . ....
. -c^, "
-
.
i
deposition couay, is that correct?
2
M3. JONES: I didn't .Make ar.v
_> representation like that.
4
MR. POLK: Well, in my opinion the
5
objection is not well taken if it's established through
o
e m s witness's testimony that he has reviewed the ; jpor:
7
before his deposition today.
3
MR. HARVARD: The witness stated on the
;
j
9
record that he would not be in a position to answer what
i
j
10
report says or doesn't say unless lie had an opoortunity
i
ll
to go through the whole thing a moment ago, and I think
I
12
that's foundation for the objection. That's the extant to
;
13
which I believe the objection is offered.
i
^
i
14
i!R.3R0WITD0N: Vie havenow reached t'^e
I
* *
l
.
_
'
I
15
point where three different Union Carbide lawyers have made
!
_
'
i
16
objections at the deposition. I don't mean to cut you guys
I
17
off, but why don't one of you make the objection?
!
13
19
MR. JOLTED:Your concernis noted.
;
|
MR. BROWNoON: I don't care if you
i
20
consult or whatever, but we will be here all day if
|
21
everyone is thinking of objections.
22
------- LAURA:
Off the record for a second.
%
23
(At this time a discussion was held off
24
the record.)
25
BY'MR. BROWNSON:
'
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ier>\ bbb-t a d-tV
67
4.
j. .{ctv3 you Vcr r-cad tins report, before r.o',0
2
A.
I nay have rood the report when it first
J
In my 4 -nos, -.ssuming it did. 1 assume it die.
4
Q.
Did you read it in preparation for your
5
apposition today?
6
A . do.
7
j.
Hava you now had a chance to look at Section
3
2 . 2 entitled "Paper"?
9
A
YGS .
1U
rlR. JONES: Do you have a response to ray
:
i i
request for a continuing objection?
12
;1R. EROirjSOW: Go ahead, that's fine. I
13
don't thinK it's a good objection.
14
HR. JONES: I didn't expect you to.
15
BY HR. BROUNSON:
.
1 o
Q.
Would you agree with me in Section 2.2 of th 3
17
Sayers report Dr. Sayers is describing concerns raised by
15
paper makers in England to the use of Union Carbide
19
asbestos in their plant?
-
2 G
A.
Well, in part it's true. It not totally true.
21
2.2.3, for example, will tell. The Tullis people indicate
,
i
22
that their failure to.use the material was not so much the
|
23
dust proposition as it was the fact that there was
j
24
indeterminant experimental work I gather on their product.
j
25
Q.
Would you agree though that at Southalls, the
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
'
M
Hilaries Turner ;ii11, and the Tallis Paper Mill s u r s ro
2
expressing to Dr. Sayers about rha use of Union Tortile
(c
asbestos in tneir piper .tills?
4
They raise questions about it, yes.
3
1.
Do you know if Union Carbide took any specific
6
steps to answer these questions raised by the paper rakers
/
in England?
'8
A. I have no idea.
:
9
Q. Do you know if Union Carbide ever advised its
j
i
10
customers in the United States in the paper industry about
:
11
these conversation from England?
12
A.
I have no idea.
li
0. Why uon't you go to Page 3 of the Sayers
:
14
report? Paragraph 3.3 is entitled "Literature Surveys,"
i 5
.mo it reads, "These are made from time to time on the
16
subject of toxicology, .and a number of more important
17
articles have been collected." Do you see that reference''
:
18
A.
Uh-'nuh.
i
19
Q, Do you know who- is making the literature
\
\
20
surveys that they talk aboutthere?
j
21
A.
1 do not know.
22
Q.
Would you-agree with me as a general
23
proposition that in trying to determine the toxicology of
24
asbestos it would be a good idea to survey the medical
25
literature on that topic?
'
KIRBY A. KENNEDY 4 .ASSOCIATES
."1
I chink t m c wo did survey t h : lit }r'.:ur: in
terms of k aepir.j ubriasc of the mat crial wiich came into
our hands. we diu not specifically iniciate a broad survey
of all the lie or-cure in the world. W e did tr-jr to ke ;p
crease of the literature that came cut in che Unit=J
scates on this procucc. ,W> Are you aware of liter ature which came out in
che United States in the 1060s concerning studies done at
diie South African asbestos mines with respect to disease?
A.
We saw some literacure which came cut of South
Africa. Q. Now, 1 am not speaking about literature
published m South Africa, I am speaking about literature
published in America concerning tha disease in the South
African asbestos? a . I would say that the only thing that we saw in
t.nat regard were some references that were published in
Salikoff's papers. q . My next question then, Dr. Dernehl, is did you
also see some of the literature published outside of this country about studies of disease among Souch African
A. We did see an occasional report which came to
our at cent ion.
Q.
Did you see studies about disease associated
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
1
*<ich Canadian chrysotile nine workers'
2
A.
Yes, that we did.
"7
Jf
<j.
Jo you knew if those were fha studies of Dr.
*Tl J C. McDonald, tha ocher Jr. McDonald?
5
A.
I believe they were.
,
o
Q.
I will nex: ask you to go to Paragraph 4.4.2
7
on Page lx which is entitled "Cause of Disease." In the
.
3
quote in that paragraph they refer to cases --
3
MR.JONES: Have you had a chance to
j
10
read the wnole section?
1
ii
THE WITNESS: I have read through the
12
quote.
_
13
DY MR. 3R3WNSON:
'
;
'
II
14
Q.
They are referring to cases inCanada, six in
!
13
number from 1952 to 1954. My question is, are those the
|
16
cases that we just mentioned that you saw coming out of the
jl7
chrysotile miners?
:
18
A.
They were part of them.
i
19
Q. McDonald articles?
j
l
iI
20
A. There were others besidesmesothelioma.
|
21
Q.
Right. But does this reference, which you
22
have just read.,-- the.quote appear to talk about some of the
23
cases cited by Dr. McDonald among the Canadian chrysotile
24
miners?
25
A.
Part of the cases, yes.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . . ....
,ah *-
' '
1
0.
Jr. Jig. 1j of ie Jay-;rs report, '.t
n l
2
i.I.i --
j
J.. Ail right.
4
A.
They quore from your toxicology report, in l
5
tnis is a quote we discussed earlier, "In paper
b
r.rnufucturing, it woulu be desirc.ble to know the duet
nt
cone n trat ions wncre the asbestos is dumped from bugs into
Ci
:.:e pulp slurry." Do you see that quote?
9
A . Yes.
iO
Q.
Do you know why it was considered desirable to
11
nave that information?
12
A. Well, because if the dust concentrations were
13
high it would be nighly hazardous areas. If the dust
j.4
concentrations were low it would be an area of less concern.
13
U.
It then goes on to state that, "Dr. Taylor
16
believes that tnere is more dust produced in opening a
17
paper or plastic bag of asbestos than there is with a
18
conventional hessian sack." Do you see that reference?
19
A. Yes.
-
20
IIR. JONES: Would you like him to read
21
the whole section then he can talk about it all at once?
22
-------- BROWNSON:
No.
.
23
riR. JONES: Okay.
24
BY MR. BROWN3O N :
2 5
Q.
Have you ever heard of such a thing, that
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & -ASSOCIATES^ o 1 ofc;b
JiSV w
1
there is more dust produced in opening a paper sack?
7Z
2
A.
No, I have not.
3
q.
Is that the first tine you have ever heard
4
that statement made?
5
A.
Well, if I read this report I assume I saw
1
6
this statement before. I also notice the following
I
7
statement that, "No satisfactory answer was forthcoming."
8
This was his opinion.
9
q.
They then go on to say two paragraphs lacer,
I
10
"It is recommended that a dust count be made in a region of
11
a freshly opened bag of pelletized and open products. Do
12
you know if that was ever done?
13
A.
I have no way of knowing.
14
q . Do you know if your medical department ever
15
did such a study?
'
A.
To th best of my knowledge we did not.
Q.
Do you know ajr. Hilton Lewinsohn?^
A.
Lewinsohn, he is the guy with Carbide now?
Q.
Well, he is, right.
A.
I have met him once, I think, up in New York.
I
Q.
Do you remember when you met him?
i
A.
About 1985.
I
Q.
Do you know, was he at Union Carbide at that
time? A.
I believe he was, yes.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY fc ASSOCIATES
. '
> r T->V o1*>,,1Q;* JJfctt'wLlv _
13
1
Q.
Do you know where Dr. Lewinsohn was employed
2
in September of 1975?
3
A.
No, I didn't know that:.
4
Q.
Do you know where he worked before he came to
5
Union Caroide?
6
A.
No. He came to Carbide after I left, if he is
7
there now.
;
8
Q.
Do you know where he worked at the time you
9
met him in 1985? was he at Carbide at that point?
j
10
A.
I can't be certain. I would say he worked at
J
11
South Charleston.
:
12
Q.
Have you ever heard a reference to Dr.
j
i
13
Lewinsohn andhis T3A Associates, do you know what that
;
14
would mean?
j
i
15
A. TBA Associates?
1
_
I
16
MR. JONES: B as in boy?
17
MR. BROWNSON: Yes.
13
A. NO.
19
q . You don't know whatthat refers to?
A.
No, I have no idea what that refers to.
q . do you remember some industrial hygiene
studies that were conducted at the Charleston, West
Virginia, plant in a couple buildings called buildings 511
and 512 back in 1962 and '63?
'
A.
511 and 512, that would be up in the research
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
1
ciraa, i chin*. -.o, I Can't recall what you are talking
2
about.
0 ' x, these were particular studies that wore 4 dona about dus caused by workers sawing insulation bloc':,
5
I tnink with a band saw.
o
::R. J0N5: Object to the castiv.iony by
7
Counsel.
3
BY d d . 3?v0V/N30dT:
9
Q.
Does that help refresh your recollection at
10
all?
li
A.
Buildings 511 or 512 or plant 511 and 512?
12
Q. It's called plant 511 and 512.
13
A. Okay. Yes, that was done at the plant level
14
to determine the quantities of dust that were developed in
15
sawing insulation that wa3 .applied to pipes.
16
Q.
And do you remember that particular work that
17
was done in connection with that?
13
A.
I just know it was done.
19
'
Q. Do you know why it was done"*
20
A. Because we wanted to know how much dust was
21
producea by the process.
22
Q.
Do you know if there had been complaints from
23
workers in those plants about the dust?
24
A.
I don't think there would be any compl'aints by
25
the workers. I think this was a concern of supervisors in
_____
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
.
.
. '
io*" on -1a5
" : ~ ,
i
the industrial hygiene apartment about the octant :oi
"75
2 hazardous nature of the ucr!:.
j
Q.
1 am going to show you what has bean tari; id
** uerr.ahl Exhibit 24 w.nich is a nemo of July 20, 1952.
3
Ox. HARVARD: 'That's the nu.r.bar on that"1
6
.!A . 3 RG\TNSOM: Exhibit 24.
7
BY IK. BRO.vMJOM:
3
/w> . The question 1 am going to ask you is is that
9
a memorandum concerning this study on sawing insulation in
10
Charleston, 7Test Virginia?
11
elR. POLK: I will object to the form of
12
the quescion.. m e document speaks for itself.
13
A.
Your question was.
14
Q-
Is that a nsr.iorandu.Ti concerning the dust, what
15
we have just been talking about, from sawing insulation at
16
Charleston, West Virginia?
17
A.
At the Institute plant7
13
Q.
Th a t 's tne Institute plant?
19
A.
Yes.
`
1
20
Q.
Now, on that memo on Exhibit 24, it indicates
1
21
that a copy was sent to you. Do you see that on the top?
22
A.
Yes.
!
23
_ Q.
Do you remember receiving it?
,
24
A.
Sure.
2 5
Q.
The next one I want to show you is Exhibit 26 -- 1
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
.
. . ..
i
he muustriui hygiene department about tbs oct annol
"7 5
1
hazardous nature of the work.
j
Q.
I am going to show you what has bean mar!; id
*t Dernahl Exhibit 24 wnich is a memo of July 20, 1932.
5
hx. HARVARD: Tnat's the number on that*1
6
HR. 3RGJNSON: Exhibit 24.
7
3Y MR. BROWNJOJ:
<
3
Q.
The question 1 am going to ask you is is that
9
a memorandum concerning this study on sawing insulation in
10
Charleston, West Virginia?
11
MR. POLPI: I will object to the form of
12
the quescion. m e document speaks for itself.
13
A.
Your question was.
14
Q.
Is that a memorandum concerning che dust, what
15
we have just been talking about, from sawing insulation at
16
Charleston, West Virginia?
17
A. At tho Institute plant"3
13
Q. That's tne Institute plant?
19
A.
Yes.
`
20
C.
Now, on that memo on Exhibit 24, it indicates
21
that a copy was sent to you. Do you see that on the top?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q.
Do you remember receiving it?
24
A.
Sure.
2 5
Q,
The next one I want to show you is Exhibit 26
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
, 7 (o 1
''-i-
*iil 9 with Z:;h ibi t 25, an! I will ash you if you
2
.i-iva aver soon that before'5
j
IR. HARVARD: While ho is looking ot it
H
could you state for the record what the docuncr.c is so .#a
5
Can nuke our notes new?
6
MR. BRO'vvNSOH: That's i memo of Decer.ber
-/7
5, 1962 from the medical department at Plant 512 or
'
J
institute, West Virginia.
;
9
BY MR. EROWNSON:
|
|
10
Q. Can you tell us what that is, v/hat the
i
11
document is?
I
12
A. Weil, it's a document prepared by the
'
15
industrial hygienist at the Institute plant concerning c'nst
14
problems with the sawing of blocks of asbestos-containing
15
insulation and Johns-Manville's complaints that the results
'
1G
of our observations didnot coincide with observations that
'
17
tney had made at their manufacturing plant in Manville, New
!
i .
18
Jersey. He requested that the supervisor cf the insulation
j
19
department and the industrial hygienist visit the Manville
I
20
plant to see if we could determine why there was a
i
21
discrepancy in the results..
l.
2.
Let me show you what has been marked exhibit
23
26, and ask you if you can tell us what that is? That's a
24
memo of December 4, 1962.
25
A.
Well, in essence this is a letter from the
* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
4
/ v'V'ibvb?,
Director, Or. Jexcon, co bis sup^rri sor, Jir. 2 ; Gi.aiabruno, co net send Mr. Paola to Johns-MrnviIle co
11
aiipcrvit oc to study cne Jonns-M an ^iile record, but Chat
~T
.ver-= to concinne co do r sampling in our piane as ch.e
5
oicaacion indicated.
w
ixnd tnat snows that a copy was sent :o von as
/
`Vail, correct?
j
:v.
That's right, information copy.
9
Q*
I assume you would have read it when you got
10
it?
11
A.
Probably.
12
Q.
Exhibit 27, would you tell us what that is?
13
Ills.. MARVARC: Could I see Exhibit Member
14
2 0 , please?
15
MR. BROVTi-IoOLI: December 4.
lo
.
MR. JOES3: For the record, Exhibit 27
17
is a letter from 3exton to Giambruno dated 23 October 19C3.
13
A.
./exl, in essence this says that he is
19
submitting
tnat Dr. Sexton is submitting a report from
20
Mr. Peele whica indicates that two types of
21
asbescos--containing insulation blocks cannot be Drocessed
22
with reasonable dust concentrations that one other type can.
23
Q.
And is that also by Dexton?
24
A.
It's by Dr. Sexton.
'
25
Q.
Dr. Sexton of Union Carbide?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES r
18 i
2
J>t
4
w.
I am now going to show you what has been
5
market. as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 33 and ask you if vou
6
can tell us what that is?
7
MR. JONES: For the record, this is a
o
i-tter dated June 7, 1967, to Dr. Hall from Dr. Dernehl.
9
Beyond that I would object to the form of the question.
10
The document speaks for itself as to what it is.
11
3Y MB. BROWNSON:
12
Q.
Have you now had .a chanca to read it''
13
A.
I did read it.
14
Q.
Did you review this document before your
15
deposition today?
1 o
A.
Which. document?
17
Q.
The one you are looking at there.
13
A.
This one?
19
Q.
Yes.
20
A.
Yes, I did see this.
21
2 . When did you review it, do you know?
22
A.
Last n ight.
23
Q.
Now, is that a leter from you of June
24
Tom Hall?
25
A.
Yes, it is.
KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
f -
' '
i
^
Anu ic muicut-
"7?
2
you hz.\ e rjv ir./^c dr. 'Jayer:
u
C c r r ict.
"AT
J.
Entitled, Thu
Health u izard in
r) r. > i
5
r 'v "0
o
A Yes, 1 did.
7
nw 3iseu on that,
3
did in foot review the sale
9
A.
I indicated be
10
report, but I don't remember it.
11
Q.
`Jo;; than you see this letter would you agree
12
witn :ue that you did review it?
13
A.
I aid review it. I still don't renumber it.
14
Q.
.low, in the second paragraph on Page i in
i 5
about the middle you say, "We therefore made some
16
preliminary studies in which the material was injected into
17
the belly cavity of guinea pigs, rats and rabbits." Are
1 d
you referring there to the Mellon Institute study that we
19
just spoke about a little while ago?
20
A.
Thao's correct.
21
Q.
Going then to Page 2, to the second paragraph,
!
22
and the copy is not real good but you speak in that
23
paragraph about halfway through about the threshold limit
24
value. Do you see that?
23
A . Yes.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 0 1 1 . 1 QS* -V- r,v. ..
w.
Ana you s:ate, "It is probable :.uc :ha five
~8
2
million par tie! 3 pen cubic foot will not be accept, able fc :
j
the prevention of mesotheliome."
4
A. Y 1S.
5
w.
That indicates, I take it, by at least Jua a 7,
6
1967 sons research './as being cone by Union Carbide with
7
respect to mesothelioma-5
i
A. ho.
9
Q. It does not indicate that?
.
!
10
A.
It does not indicate that at all. This is my
1
il
personal opinion being expressed.
12
Q.
Well, it does indicate that as of that date
15
you were aware of the disease mesothelioma-5
14
A. Correct.
'
15
Q. And it also indicates that -you questioned as
;
16
of June 7, 1967, whether the then threshold limit value was
5
l
17
sufficient to prevent mesothelioma?
j
18
A. I was concerned that it might not be.
j
19
Q. In fact, you were concerned that even one
i
i
20
million particles per cubic foot might not be enough, is
!
2 i
that right?
22
A. That's a possibility.
_
'
iI
23
Q. And that was one-fifth of the threshold limit
24
value in affect that date?
'
23
A. That's correct.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
'
.
_ __
_o * i
9i
4.
.
d o o c yea knew if this concern about th 2
Am
threshold x-imt Vuiu: net pr e v anting mesoeha 1 ion2 v.\-.s :vc-
J
ccr^auiucit jd ;c Lnicr. Carbide customers?
4
A.
I do nut believe edit it :/as tcmnur.icated to
5
oustcnuis because it had no basis in fact, it .as simply a
O
persona.!. opinion it tna time.
7
.
Eut it Was your --
`
o
A.
It was my concern that this would nor be *
9
acceptable.
10
Q.
And at that point in time you ware
I had
1
11
better get the title again, associate medical dir actor
12
in `67?
1g
A.
In `67, yes, I was associate medical director.
14
Q.
One of the other Union Carbide employees whose
15
ueposition was taken in this case, Bert Barton, described
16
you as the Union Carbide toxicological guru. Would you
IV
agree with that assessment?
lb
A.
I don't know what guru means, but I was the
19
expert in toxicology.
'
'
20
2.
Would it be fair to say that in the Union
j
21
Carbide company you were the expert or authority in the
j
i1
22
field of toxicology?
.
.
j
1
23
A. That's correct.
i 1
I
24
C. And would it be fair to say that your.opinions
j
.
i
25
on that subject would carry a good deal of weight within
|
* '
i1
' -
KIRBY A. KENNEDY &'ASSOCIATES^ aoo-i em'q A-TV--
a
t.ic company?
:1R. JONES: I will cb]2 ct no Che form of
5
cue question as to asking hi n to specul 'ft2 aCOUf
4
scate of mind. Go anead and answer, if you can.
5
A . Let's say that I liked to think that
o
opinions would carry considerable weight.
7
0.
I will shew you what has bean marked as
d
Dernahl Exhibit 24 and ask you first, is that another
o
document that you reviewed before the deposition here today-5
10
A.
No, I did not review this.
11
w.
Okay.
12
A.
Tnis is one we looked at before.
13
* Ow
I am not sure if we did or net, but you might
14
have looked at it over lunch.
15
A.
The Asbestos Toxicology Report.
1 b
Q.
I am asking now about the letter.
17
K The letter?
18
c.
To Frank Dexter.
19
MR. JONES: For the record, this is a
20
letter dated June 13, 1957, to Frank Dexter from ?,, J. Hall
21
with a two page asbestos toxicology report attached to if.
22
A.
I don't remember this letter, but I do
23
remember that problems arose with the badly damaged
24
shipments of bags of asbestos and the refusal of the dock
25
workers to unload those badly damaged shipments.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES.
'53
w
rs these bally canugiJ sh iomenta,
r
ones o;a: m England?
<
xn angiun.I
Ana tnese ware che ooch wo:hers who would
m i o a d then iron ships
Th at 's righc.
Q.
And that was because the bags war a b roban and
they were very dusty?
9
A.
3
iO
Q.
Do you remember if that was open fiber or
1
pelle cs?
12
I have no idea.
13 Y
14
Q.
Do you reminder what type of bags those were0
A.
I have no idea.
15
Q.
Do you "enow if they were paper bags0
i o
A.
I have no idea.
i /
Q.
The first paragraph of the latter says that
J.
Dr. Dernehi has followed this area very clos?ly, the area
13
of possible toxicity and carcinogenic properties of
20
asbestos, would you a agree with that as of June 13, 1957
21
A.
I would say that we had followed it closely,
22
ain not sure that I would say very closely.
'
23
Q.
And, again, following it closely includes
24
reviewing medical literature on that topic?
'
25
A.
As it came to hand, very closely. It might
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES > i> ~ % __ . ~
2
4
7 d 9
10 11 1 2
13 14 15 15 17 16 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
iVa involved going o j l and searching for stuff r a m a r :h cn ust keeping abre-st of the tuff that was coming to b.and.
for us what Exhibit :4 is1 HR. JONES: I t 1's already been ident ii'
<?</
or tn e record.
1R. 5RO'.id30tf: I didn't think it va; for
hs recora.
iY MR. 3R0NN30M: J Tell us wno the author is and what the datv
ras MR. JONES: That's baen done.
This was apparently written by T . J. Hall.
Q.
Do you know T. J. Hall to be Dr. Thomas Hall?
That would be my understanding'.
Q.
Okay.
.
A.
And apparently it was written to a Mr. rank
Dexter, './ho I do not know.
Q.
Earlier I had showed you Exhibit 32, which is
a memorandum of January 12, .1955. I will ask you now, does
that exhibit indicate that a copy was sent to you? HR. POLK: Did you say January or Ju l y'9
' ________ MR. DROV7NSON: January.
A.
Yes, I saw the memorandum.
Q. That's all I have on that. The next exhibit I
want to show you is Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 35, and I
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955.
^ v
r *'f1a
X
ill ask you first, is cn^t something you reviewed r.'fore
2
w deposition tciay?
! j |
A.
L<O
T/* 1
Would you look at it now the;;?
5
.1R. J0WE5: For the record, this is a
o
litter dated .lugust 1, 1957, to Frank Dexter from Thomas
7
hull.
3
2 Y ,i r . b r o w ::3Or :
9
c.
Have you had a chance to review it?
10
A.
Yes.
X
0.
Can you identify for us what that is?
12
.1R. JULIES: I will object to that, the
13
document spe aks for itself.
14
3Y .-1R. 3AOWN 50L\:
15
Q.
Does that document indicate that a copy was
1 0
sent to you?
17
A.
Yes, ic does.
13
.
Q.
And would you agree that a copy was s m t to
19
you?
-
20
21.
A.
Yes, it was.
Q.
The next document I want to show you is
22
Deposition Exhibit -36-and I will first ask you if you
2 . reviewed that before your deposition?
24
A.
Wo, I did not.
25
'
Q.
I will then ask you to take a look at it.
&r
I
l ! ii
1
i
KIRBY A. KENNE,,D,,Y_ &,,_ASSOCIATE'S.**'
.
i
-Hiti'o a letter of November 50, 1937, to Trank Dexter fro-
2
nomas Hex! in Brussels.
8U
j
..K. POLK: .exl, I think, for thn record
i ic ought to reflect that there is a second page attach'd to
5
tnaa e x m b r t that is not typewritten but in some
'3 r.andwritten form.
7
by hR. BRO'.r.oON:
8
Q.
Do you recognize the signature at the bottom
9
o * c'^e first page where it says Thomas, the signature of
lu
Dr Tnomas Hail?
11
i- 3 aY s Thomas Hall below it, so I assume it's
12
Tom Hail.
i j
C*
There is some handwriting on the left margin
x 4
of that page. Can you tell whose handwriting that is-5
1 5
A. No, I can't.
lb
Q. . Can you tell us 'whose initials those are at
17
the bottom of it?
18
A. I have no idea.
19
Q.
Paragraph 2 of -this letter there is a sentence,
20
"Perhaps it would be better to have this sort of
21
publication", and they are talking about the Sayers' report,
22
~~ first approved-- by-- Carl Dernenl before we finally agree. 1
23
Do you see that?
24
A.
Yes, but this does not refer to the Sayers'
25
report really.
.
KIRBY A, KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES /c n v c m ,, i am,-.k&SSs^U*..w
_--wrwt--rW-J
SH
i
0.
*j Q you rC/iow
4
3.
it says, "In tn1 3 report Ian passes on
J
request lor p e r m s s i o n so publish oar cita. " This is th
t
-.laiyticai data that should b*: developed it Niagara Fails,
5
"I would like /cur consents on this."
o
w*.
wall, ic says that "Ian", and I assume chat's
7
Ian layers, "Pusses on the request for pernission to
G
publish our data." Do you knew what data that refers to"5
9
A.
The data that would ba -- wait a minute here
10
now. Belgium to Dexter, Union Carbide. No, I don't know
11
what chat data refers to but this must have to do with son?
12
asbestos data developed by Union Carbide Belgium.
i j
Q.
hell, attached to it is handwritten notes of
4
Dr. ayers, is that right?
15
A.
Well, I don't know who wrote the handwritten
16
note.
17
Q.
The letter says it's Dr. Sayers handwritten
13 .notes, is that right?
19
MR. JONES: It speaks for itself.
I
20
MR. HARVARD: Are you asking if that's
21
what the letter says, Bob?
-
22
44W BROWNSON: Yes.
23
MR. JONES: I don't see it. Can you
24
point out where on the letter?
25
'
MR. BROWNSOU: First paragraph right in
.____________
'
_
KIRBY A. .KENNEDY &,ASSOCIATES
;
, -7
. . _. _.
,,Y ~
A' T.-
'
1
j.
would you ilso agree that around this Tr.r.'
c
e also concern id that in fact the Da'.rifia
4
:o
cause it was so fine, .i..d a greater prop- n
the snail airways of
lungs tnan o ther
5
era?
o
7
qujaaon?
3. JONdi: Do you understand the
86
5
A
1 d o n 't like tne 'word prooensicy.
9
c.
Well , how about ability?
10
A.
How abouc possibility?
11
J.
Let mu rephrase the question and you cun
12
it. Wili you agree that you were concerned it
i ->
this time, 1967, that the Calridia asbastos fibers
14
haa a greater possibility of getting into the small airway^
15
of the lungs than otnar asbestos because they were so short,
16
so fine?
17
A.
Yes, I would agree with that.
18
Q.
In fact, that was the reason that you had the
14
toxicology report dona by the Mellon Institute in 1556?
20
A. That was a part of tha reason.
21
Q.
t:g w , again, do you recall approving any
22
publication by Dr._Ian layers or approving any reports of
23
Dr. Gayars for publication around 1967?
24
A. .1 do not recall any such approval.
25
Q. Now, you told us earlier that you did receive
KIRBY A. KENNEDY t ASSOCIATES <*1 - 0 92?-1 955-.'. **&$&*< -
bastos?
And that' 3 because :hat insulation cor.tu ;in :-*
That1s corroc:.
j. ona of t.ie tnings Union Carbide was doing fro::.
*947 was tailing air sampling and air tests'5
o
A.
They were noc raking air samples in trios:-
/
aariy dates. That cane later.
I
a
U.
Do you know when that began?
9
A.
About the tine when we got industrial
(
10
hygienists in the plant, which would be in the ear ly `60s.
11
Q.
Do you xnow whan you began to take annual
12
chest X-rays from your workers in the plant?
13
A.
'Je started that whan we -- about 1941 at Couth
14
Charleston, and we started it in 1947 in Texas City, '47 at
15
Institute, and at all the other plants it was initiated
I
16
when the plants started, cane about.
17
Q.
Did yo.u attend the 13th Annual Congress on
13
Occupational Health at Brighton, England in 1975?
i 9
A.
No, I did not. -
20
Q.
Do you know if anyone from your medical
21
department did?
22
A. -- No, nobody did.
23
Q.
Do you know H. B. Rhodes?
24
A. No, I do not.
25
Q. Never heard that name?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ;
A
I IT..-y hav c near d
but I don't recall :t
1
.3. JOJ3~: he have bean going about
*OUIT wHu a n 1 ft iw.fU.*O. rake a short bre ak here.
.1 (At this tine a brief recess was taker.. )
5
AY HR. jROwNJCJ:
!o
6
0-
Doctor, before we took our break we wore
7
talking about th-r International Congress or. Occupation?. 1
d
health meeting at Brighton, England in 1975.
9
A.
Yes. Was that the International something on
.
10
Permanent Commission on Occupational Health-5
'
11
Q.
I don't know. But what I wanted tc show you
12
was an exhibit marked 39 and ask you to take a look at than
13
and see if that helps you at all in recalling anything
i4
about that?
15
HR. JONES: For the record, this is a
16
memorandum dated September 29, 1975, from H. B. Rhodes to
17
A. Z. Byrne, Junior, among others.
13
(At this time the requested portion of the
19
transcript was raadaloud by the Court
:
I
2C
Reporter.)
|
I
21
A. . Not really. I seem to recall that there was a
1
* .
II
22
meeting ofthe Permanent Commission andInternational
j
23
Association on Occupational Health, which was held in
24
Brighton, England, probably at about that time. I was a
25
member of that, but I did not go to England.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .
i w. Do you remember a conclusion coming cue of. !(
2
t;iat meeting that -he standard of two fibers pur GC cay he
j uven too r.;g'a :c prevent mesothelioma?
4
A.
I do not remember that, no.
j
w.
Have you ever heard that said?
o
in't recall whether I ever heard it said or
7
not
8
0
Do you .now, have you ever heard of a Dr.
9
Steve Holmes?
10
A No.
11
0. Do you knowwho he is"3
12
A. No.
i J
2. Now,earlier Ihad asked you some questions
14
about if Union Carbide did air testing in customer plants
1 5
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Do you know after the 03HA standard went into
17
effect in 1972 if Union Carbide offered that service to its
16
customers?
19
A.
We did not.
.
20
0.
Okay.
21
A.
To the best of my knowledge.
22
Q.
Do you-- know who John L. Myers is? He was the
23
marketing manager for the Calridia asbestos division at on:
24
time.
25
A.
I met Myers a few times, yes.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 922-1655' :
-.ti-t9-'0V. 'l*-*
_ A d*_Ad-*-v
2
A. Okay.
i
0. Does :h:: incline ie --
*T
A.
"I am enclosing a copy of nis handwritten
5
report for your information." All right. 3o Sayers says,
o
"Cnrysotile fibers, being curved, are less likely to go
7
cix-ap into lungs. injected chrysotile does cause cancer in
i-x3 , so the fact that m practice it is less responsible
9
for tumor production is probably due to a greater
10
elimination rate as well as it's geome," whatever the hell
x x
he means by geomu.
12
U.
I think it means geometry but it's cut off.
13
A. That could be.
14
MR. JONES: What you have just done is
15
read tne section hand-written?
i o
THE WITNESS: Yes.
17
A.
In other words, he says that because the
18
fibers are curved they are less apt to penetrate deep into
19
the lung and, therefore, less apt to cause disease in the
20
lung even though these curved fibers, when they are
21
injected into the animal, will produce cancers.
22
Q.
D id you-,-- at that time in 1967, agree with
2 J
those statements or conclusions by Dr. Sayers?
24
A.
I would agree with them now, so I imagine I
2 5
did at that time.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES.
.
......................................
1
copy of l'i3 i/ report. Lo you ,:now if chat resort w .s
2
pubi ned?
A.
I iluV2 .IO Ud.
4
Q.
L'o you know if you approvai tnat resort for
5
pubi ioat ion?
6
A.
I have no idea.
7
0.
Dc you know if you would have had to have
L approved that report for publication? Let me rephrase that
3
Was your approval required before that report could be
10
published?
il
A.
I would say that I would be asked for an
12
opinion as to whether it should be published, but this
10
opinion was not binding upon whether or not it was cr was
14
not published.
i5
0.
So'would your role than be as nort of a
16
reviewer as opposed co the final authority as to whether
17
it's published or not"3
16
A.
i think that is a fair way to put it.
I
iy
Q.
I am going to show you what has been marked as
20
Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 33 and ask you, first of all,
21
did you review that before your deposition?
22
A.
No._______
2 J
Q.
Can you review it and tell us if you know what
24
it is?
2 5
MR. JONES: For the record, this is a*
KIRBY A. KENNEDY S. A*VS` S, OCIv AT E.S~*v.
.
.
d-.esd April lo, 195/, to D. C. '..'illard ire."1. 2 .--
2
Mui ray.
V
.i.
This is a report
Zara .larruy, who '/as an
4
industrial hyyitnisc for the South Charleston plant or.
5
studios w m c h were node on employees while they ware
6
installing Kaylo insulation and a rooo.r.nenZation t'nat
7
studies be continued to get more meaningful lata.
a
Q.
Do you remember being involved in any way ir.
9
that particular project?
i
|
10
A. No, I do not.
|
11
u.
On the last sentence of the latter it says, "It
12
would be helpful to schedule -- " I am sorry, it talks about
i 3
being kept informed of jobs pertaining to cutting,
;
14
installing and removing Kaylo in order to be helpful to
;
15
schedule the air sampling work. Does that indicate to you
i
15
that air sampling work was being done at the South
;
17
Charleston plant in '67?
1
i
13 .
MU. JONES: Object to the form of the
:
i
19
question. Dr. Dernehl has already said that he wasn't
j
i
20
involved in the project. Go ahead and answer, if you can.
'
'
i
21
A.. Well, my answer would be that studies of this
j
22
type were go ing on in the three major chemicals plants,
23
Charleston, Institute and Texas City and that information
24
of this type was sent up to my office for information only.
25
Q.
Now, were air sampling studies being done back
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
- r
1
J.
'..'culi you ce surprised if in 19744 <r. .'yers
2
was tx-iing customers that ho would bo happy lo -.-ake r.a.i.
j
or analyze air s-ur.plas from tncir plant fer xstectcs dut:"'
;
A.
Tnac v/aa hr. Mye r s1 problem and not nine. 1 :
b
was not the type of thing that Union Carbide as such --'as
o
doing. he did not want to intruda on ras tornar's cpnvt. tions.
I
0.
Lo you know if in th-a 1970s such air sampling
U
..'as being dene by Union Carbide as a marketing tccl to
9
~lXXieviute the fears of customers about asbestos dust?
10
A.
Not that I know o f .
- 1
MR. BRONNJON: I guess that's all the
x2
que stions I have riht now. I will let Mr. Polk 3.S 3ovn *
* J
MR. POLK: The record should reflect
14
it 1 s five minutes to 3:00.
i a
1
CROSS -EXA: IINATIOH
17
SY MR. POLK:
15
Q.
Dr. Dernehl, I am going to ask you some
13
questions -and they are going- to be fairly direct and
i U
hopefully you will be able to respond in a fairly succinct
21
way so we can get back to Minnesota today. I d o n 't want to
22
waive my right -to--con-tinua this deposition in the event,
i
23
however, I am not able to finish.
24
First of all, I want to tell you my name
25
is Michael Polk. I represent the Plaintiffs in this case.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY &. ASSOCIATES. . (612) 922-1955 .
ie
i
J^uondiy, 1 ,wnt co es tabi. ish your agreement with :.i2 :hat
2
you ,uii co your oast uo respond as succinctly as possible
tu cna questions tone I ask you. '.'ill you agree to do that7
4
A.
I will try.
3
Q.
_f there is. anything that I ask you that you
O
don't underst-nd, please let ne knew and I will be happy to
7
clarify the question. first of all, would you agree with
'
` is
this general proposition that Union Carbide, as a corporate
'
9
entity, as far as you know was well aware of hazards
!
f I
10
associated with asbestos at the time that you arrived in
!
il
1947?
12
UR. JONES: Object to the legal
13
characterization "corporate knowledge," but go . m a and
14
answer.
15
A.
There were people in the corporate medical
IS
department that were aware of health hazards from asbestos
17
Q.
If you know, would you agree with this, that
18
the knowledge possessed by the Union Carbide medical
19
department, as of 1947, went back into the 1930s?
i. J
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
And would you agree that the basis for the
II
2 2
knowledge that was within Union Carbide's possession as cf
23
1947 was based at least in part on a review of medical
24
literature?
25
A.
Yes.
'
'
*
KIRBY A. KENNEDY fc ASSOCIATES
I: .
. ,
j in * `3 -uai.ii a u p a r a s
l
of 1?
1 ccing in-depth liter-cure ssirc'r.ss
Oii 0..COOl ii tv
41
r\
I don' t thin* -jo. 2 di cn 1t have tine,
5
u*
A'ould you agr so that at soiii2 tine subsequent
o
, 0 x1 --f7 Uni on Cc.rbi do nau iha ability ani the r asc ar c eo to
7
-o in- depth medical search 2 3 , that is modicol lit?roture
-Jh
sea rch 2S?
Un*oa Carbide used their Mellon fellowship to
10
carry out some in-aeyth researches on certain oroducts
X 1
rather than naving t m s done by the medical department
12
itself.
.
x
0.
Lot me rephrase it then. Did Union Carbide
14
have tite ability and resources to draw on outside
X 0
organizations to conduct in-depth medical literature
16
searches at some time subsequent to 1947?
17
A. Yes.
13
Q.
Did Union Carbide's medical department at any
19
tim<= have access to computerized medical literature
20
searches?
21
A. Through Mellon Institute, yes.
I
22
Q. Now, at what point, in your opinion,
23
subsequent to 1947, did Union Carbide have the ability and
24
resources to conduct in-depth medical literature searches?
25
A.
I would say in the late '50s and early '60s
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES
t
-t'-f* was expended to -n-
^ H'-
J
. ,,
.
-at rote Foo9 W o ^ iS * * CI
t.uu '"iei ,-s
-
-aia
. , >i^d
, of
a aas-o--iuon-1
tnu.
- - nnjt- trie sana k -- "
*
T'ni3 13 ^ a o o -
_ .
w*
'sxud you
,.-,1 ^
-
, vo,1if1 n^il^---r-ant.. die.
cut it s Cl **.
. ,,.,fcidv , n . d i s U A.partoent H.a
-rJ Knowledge that Union -- t l l `
.
W as that knov; j.ucg-2 -..
with r w f m . n c a - . * . *
1
1 9 4 7 S0l3ly ..< on .
?
;
x
In 1 ^ 7 , /**
.
.
. was th first time
- jhan in your opinion, was th
|
0
ivnc. when,
*
j
`
a.p.ttnant had to*** of
'
that union c r b i u
, ,, 1
. v Zdtds that was not based solely asbestos .nctarus
literature:? .
_ w ,11Sa it's r 4-hat question b I can't answer .hat q
"
'i-al literature source -ro
. ,ssit,e to alininate the naal.al U
14
lBOOSSlC.c .
other so-u,,rrc-eess oorr information,
16
q.
Okay
.
They are intertwined.
l7
.**
*
.
T a<- "<= ass
x understandn uhat vyoouu are saying* -- " "
you this.
.
. 1 vnur opinion, then.
- the first time, m Y
was
information that
,. on -atbid. n a d U a l d a p a r t n m t Ha
20
t M bnl
. ,,t th. U direction ooncarnrng
thered or Had gathered at th-i
21
they gather
ontained within
,
ds of asbestos that were not c
aediaal literature?
A.
! would say at the tine that
d l 4 tha i n i t i a l
studies at Kellon Institute^ .
e
r mccjnqiATES
J.
-vilKir.g of a possibility.
2
'0 .
in chis case, this particular report die re:eh
j
Co.twoa Corporation, woo was a customer of Union Carbide.
4
Coos thaz indicate zo you whether it was published or nor.0
5
MR. JOJ5: 1 will object to that.
3
.4.. It suggests that it was published. Carbide
'
7
itself might have prepared a number of those documents for
o
submission to customers, I don't know about that.
,
II
9
Q.
Liovit was where any policy at Union Carbide i n
j
i
iO
the 1960s that technical reports concerning asbestos which
j
i
11
were sent to customers be reviewed by the medical
|
12
department?
j
13
A.
Not all of then.
j
i
14
Q.
So would it be possiblefor someone such as
j
15
Mr. Woolsry to issue a technical report such as Exhibit 1
j
/
I
lb
and it not be reviewed by the medical department?
j
'
i
17
MR. JONES: I am going to object to the
|
13
characterization of the exhibit as a technical report. G o
|
19
ahead and answer.
"
I
i
20
A.
If the publication made any reference to
j
21
health problems associated with the product then it would
22
have been reviewed by somebody in the medical department.
23
If it was just a technical report we would not review it.
24
Q.
Was there ever a policy instituted at Union
25
Carbide that reports to customers about the use of asbestos
-r ...
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 ,
; . 4* x V -
1
2 c r e v i e w s by cne aidicol d a p a r t ^ n f 1
2
a.
Noc that I know of.
i
Q.
O'ui there ever a policy et Onion Carbide ch:-c
4
*st-ocwS wO customers about the asbestos contain3'3
5
eeacei.i.ir.ts about nealth?
o
'Ll. LAURA: Rephrase that.
7
BY ;Ll. BOWNSON:
5
C.
W03 tnera ever a policy at Union Carbide
9
Corporation t.iat reports sent to customers by Union Carbide
10
must contain a statement about the health effects of
X x
asbas tos?
12
A.
There was no such policy, no.
13
Q.
I am going to show you what has been r.arkt-d as
14. xhibit 2 and ask you if this is a report issued or a
13
document issued by Union Carbide?
i 3
MR. JON -1**3: For the record, the document
17
is entitled Properties of Asbestos Suitable for Use in
ia
Cellulosic Paper" by A. W. Neumann.
19
sa-Ys that it was issued by Union Carbide,
20
so I presume it was. I don't know Uaumann and I have not
21
seen the document.
.
2 2
Q.
Do you know if this document was reviewed by
23
the Union Carbide medical department before it was issued""3
24
A.
I have no idea.
25
Q.
The next thing I want to show you is a
'
"
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
* f% * & '
!
`
uocununt marked s D e r m a l Deposition Exhibit dumb 2r 4, m e / o /
ask t:Mt you first look at that.
.IK. JONES: For the record, as has been
not'd before in other depositions, I will object to the
annotations on the copy.
MR. 3R0WN30N; That document './as
produced to us with those annotations.
i
8
(At this time a discussion was held off
9
the record.)
10
BY MR. 3RQWU30N:
11
Q. Doctor, is this a copy of a document entitled
12
"Asbestos Toxicology. Report" and it has your name at the
13
end of it?
14
A. Right.
15
Q. It also has the name of Dr. K. S. Lane?
u1
lo
A. Right.
17
Q. Is that the same Dr. Lane we were talking
18
about before?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. Were you tne author of this?
21
a . I probably wrote part of it and Lane probably
22
wrote part of it too.
23
Q. Do you remember writing it?
24
A. I doubt it.
25
C- To you recall writing any toxicology reports
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
`u- *-'*
i
,
| <-C O U U i S b S 3 t O S ?
/^ z
2
Do i specifically recall? The answer i3 r.:>.
J
Did I wrile rhea? I am sure I did.
4 v. You a o n 'c cany, for example, that you v/rctu
5
^nic p^rticuxdr one, Exhibit 4?
e
A.
Nc, I don't ceny that I had a hand in .vritint
7
tna t .
o
D.
You don't know wnose writing these handwritten
9
notes are, do you, on Exhibit 4 ?
.
lo
MR. DROWNSON: Are those your s'5
11
:-;R. POLK: It night be.
12
THE WITNESS: Not mine.
13
MR. 3R0NN30N: Is that yours0
14
MR. POLK: Yes.
15
16
are.
MR. BROWN SON: Now w.e know whose they
1/
BY MR. BROWN3ON:
13
-
w*
Aave been told in prior depositions by
13
Union -arbide employees that this particular Asbestos
20
loxicology Report was updated from time to time. Do you
21
remember doing that?
i
22
A. Specifically, no.
23
Q.
Does that sound like it's something that couLd
|
24
have occurred?
i
.
25
A. That's a logical procedure.
.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ^ASSOCIATES ~ ~
'
-
(612) 922-1955 ` 2 .
~ " . .
X i1
*W
Do you knew where w<-_ would find today j o ?
2 ! Of tlVl d i ZZ
- 1 r e p o r t if i
1
- :
A.
i
5 I
Q.
ri *? I nava no id-aa.
/to 3
6
31 r* t
7
toxicology
3 `
A.
Tney would be filed in our toxicology .wiles
9
under asbes
10
Q.
11
narked asbe
12
A.
13
Q.
Vihat sorts of materials would you keep m
14
those fold
15
A.
16
that came
17
toxicology
16
that was o
19
Q.
Did you maintain that file over the years-7
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
viould you ever throw things out of it?
22
A.
I doubt it.
23
0.
Do you know if it's still maintained today-7
24
A.
I have no idea.
'
25
Q.
Do you know who would have custody ox control
*
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
(612) 922-1955
k
i ^ adC.l files coday?
2
"
;o tri bist of my knowledge, when T 'a e. 0 jw
Yor;-: -six of coo3 a tix25 were pat in a box and chav were
4
snippau soaewhere, down to Nest Virginia, I believe. met
5
tnay aid, wnecher they kept all of that stuff in \;?sz
i
/irginia or simpiy kept the chemicals part, I don't know.
7
'0 . cfcw, in the second paragraph of Exhibit 4 , th
o
.-.sbestos Toxicology Report, there is a statement, "It is
3
believed by most authorities that these cases -- " and -.hoy
10
are talking abou; cases or cancers, " -- have been
ii
associated w Ach exposure significantly exceeding the
12
thresaold limit value." Do you sea that particular
15
sentence?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Do you know who the authorities are that are
16
referred to there as "most authorities"?
17
A.
I think that is a statement that is lifted
18
from t.ne general literature and really does not mention anv
19
specific names.
'
20
Q*
Well, xt me back up a little bit. Do you
21
xnow when chis Asbestos Toxicology Report was oublished,
22 Exhibit 4? I
23
A.
I do not. I am surprised that it does not
24
have a date on it. Ordinarily we dated those things.
25
Q*
I am going to show you a document marked
I
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 r I'ki-TS.
1
Ocrnehl Deposition Exhibit 32, which is a memorandum cf
2
January 12, l^C-5, which refers to the rpert and ask you if
J
thtic gives you 1 p o m e of rtferenct to date the report-5
4
AR. LAURA: I object to that
5
sifterioution as it refers to that rsport
refers to
o
u report.
/
-A. POLK: Off the the record.
d
(At this time a discussion was held off
9
the record.)
10
BY MR. BROWNSOH:
il
Q.
Doctor, do you believe that this memorandum,
12
which you are looking at which, is Exhibit 32, does that
13 help you date the Asbestos Toxicology Report that ;,a have i
14
just been referring to?
I
15
A.
I would suggest that we probably prepared it
16
in 1964.
17
Q.
Now, with that knowledge, let's go back to the
13
Asbestos Toxicology Report, does that help you determine
19
who these authorities are that said chat cases of cancer
I
20
have been associated with exposure significantly exceeding
1
21
the threshold limit value?
22
A.
Not really.
23
Q.
But is it your testimony that that statement
24
is based upon a review of the medical literature at the
25
time?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
,
1
A.
2n.it s viy.it.
loL
2
j.
'Jj.n you yiv2 us any specific articles or
J
references cr texts-''
4
A. i;ot m y more.
5
Q.
'Jew, on the third paragraph of the Asbestos
o
Toxicology Report you are talking about vast:- control
7
asbestos aust exposure. Do you see that?
4
d
A. Yes.
9
y. And one of the things that you talk about is
10
"wet processes where possible". '.That do you mean by that"1
L 1
A.
Jell, if you handle the asbestos in a water
12
slurry or witn the fibers thoroughly wotted with water,
12
tnare is no dust and there is no reasonable way that you
14
can expect the ^fiber to enter the body.
15
Q. And would you consider a paper making
1 o
operation to be a wet system?
r7
A. Yes.
13
q . But 'would you agree with me that in a paper
19
making operation or a wet system there is some process at
20
the begining where the fiber has to be dumped into the wet
21
system where it would release dust?
22
AR. JONES: If you know.
23
A.
Yes, we know that to be true. And I know that
24
Carbide-tried to handle -- to reduce the amount of dusting
25
that occurred at such a time by pelletizing the product so
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES r.-l-\ M i - i otcr At/rfUti--
i I tnat ic wasn't just loos a fibers in a'bag, which is che ,iy
2 Lt
originally sold. due tine product was pc Lie-, is ad so
v/nen you uu.nped you dad much less dust and your local
4
exhaust ventilation at the point of dumping more raadily
5
picKad up and carried away the dust.
o Q. Would you agree, however, that even the
7
pelletized asbestos did create some dust as it vas being
3
dumped into tna wet process in a paper making operation"5
9
A. I think very probably it did, yes.
10
Q.
'Would you also agree that even the pelletized
11
asbestos would create dust during delivery and unloading if
12
bags were broken or that sort of thing?
13
A.
Certainly.
14
d.
Would you also agree that in a paper makinc
15
operation where'you have a wet svstem, after that crcduc1-
16
comes out of the dryer and is now in a paper board form
17
that you would get dust as it's cut and drilled and ground
x
and those sort of things?
19
-
20
of foundation.
MR. JONES: I will object on the basis
21
A.
Noe to ciy knowledgewhatsoever.
22
C-
Have you ever observed a paper making
23
operation using the Calridia asbestos'3
24
A.
No, I have not.
-
25
Q.
Do you know of any Union Carbide customers who
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-19550^'&jfclo.' .
1 2
J
-i 5 o 7 3 3
10 11 12
13
1h
15 16 17 13 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
:lj- iucn operations'
I^ 8
^
riow _.i*]\*
-- .
L '"ail-
::a02St0S VaS Sold CO
tdin jai toners fo.- chat ourpocc but I do not know
tna customers ware.
U.
.lave you over heard of the Conwed Corporation?
A.
-NO.
w. Minnesota?
A.
No.
waver visited tneir plant it Cloquet, '
Q.
And I taxe it than you weren't aware that it
was a manufacturer of ceiling tile-5
No.
0-
Amongocher things'-3
A.
No.
,
Q.
Lould you agree with me that as of the date
the .asbestos Toxicology Report was written, why don't you
~k 'ac lfc (5ain' the recommendations that you made to control dust were to use a closed flow system, a wet
process, adequate ventilation and pelletizing of the
asbestos? I am getting that all out of Paragraph 3 there.
MR. JONES: Look at it again.
A.
"Closedflow systems, wet processes were
possible, and adequate exhaust ventilation where openings
in the system are necessary."
MR. LAURA: Let the record reflect that
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
1 K ' - ' r>
8tt
'T'HAc-JCJn.i
1
ni.
*T\T 5 o 7 3 9
10
i:
12
iu 14 x5
| ch-' doctor was reading fron his report,
A.
iher. wo also
3.
wn.*re do you
r\
It says, "wh:
stay within the threshold impossible, ueficiant and
:ors
'-1*^ protection of employees."
Q.
dew, would you agre-e with me, however, that
tne recommendations made by you in the Asbestos Toxicology Report are, Number 1 , a closed flow system?
IR. JONES: I am going to object to the form of the question first, in the sense that he did not
araft it by himself. Second, that what recommendations the
document makes are in the document itself.
ahead and answer.
'
You car go
1
. A.
Well, I agree to what is in this paragraph.
17
Q*
Paragraph 3 of the toxicology report7
id A. Certainly. I think that covers the thing very
19 prucwi^ally and it is state of the art protection of that
20
day and time.
21
Q*
One of the things listed in Paragraph 3 is the
22 statement, "in_paper_manufacturing, it would be desirable
23
to know the dust concentrations where the asbestos is
24
dumped from bags into the pulp slurry." Do you see that7
25
A. Yes.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ^ <5* "> V r^ . <*.,;(. ..
..nv/ would that c<_- desirable to kno w 3
. 2
1
vaa-.'s :.-.j j h c j
4 ? . o b dichi
J j ^
^ a o v e i fecu its P , , iv,
4 sa9 _Ov_.*.i9 as j0.id in .lipping and it gets expos id to t'.tt
5 outsits air jr.d allows tils asoapa of fibers to the outside
o
air.
7
Q*
.vouid that be trus with the pelletized
d. -isbascos as -./ell as the open fiber?
9 .-i. i/e are talking about pelletized fiber here.
10
Q. And it also goes on to say, "Concentrations
j. 1
snoulo also be determined where dusting occurs in finishing
12
products." Do you see chat?
10
A* I sea that.
14 Q- I take it from chat statement that it was 15
recognized that once the product comes out of the wet
16
system and is in cha finishing stage, you can get dust
17 there, is tnat right? is that what we are talking about
13
there?
19 Tnat is what the statement implies, and I
20
assume at the time we wrote this we were told that this
21
would occur.
22
Q.
Sow, do-you know if any tests were done by
23
Union Carbide to determine what the dust concentrations
24
were at the point that pellets were dumped from bags into
2 5
the pulp slurry?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
II i
r'* 0.1 ion -arbiue aid not do that kind of testing,
2
indc would be m e responsibility of the user.
j
rk,* Did Uni cn Carbide
4
they should dc cn tc t estin
5
n Did it right nere.
6
o.
You are saying tha'
-V,-,
7
-ijbuo.ca toxicology report tells customers to do that"3
8
A.
That's right.
9
'J.
Did Union Carbide ever do any testing to
10
determine what concentrations of dust were in finishing
il
products in the paper industry?
12
That was the responsibility of the customer.
13
Union Carbide did not do tasting in the customer's plant.
14
Q.
Well, if the evidence in this case shows that
15
Union Carbide did do testing at the Conwed plant, would
16
that surprise you?
17
they did, I didn't know about it and I
18
would be surprised if they did.
19
-1R. JONES-: Your questions were talking
2 0
about at the finished product end?
21
MR. 3R0WN30N: My last question was
22
anywhere in -the-plan-t^- I just said at the plant.
23
MR. JONES: I just want to make sure that
24
the Doctor understood that.
25
A.
Well, it was our policy not to do testing at
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES <612 ) 922-1955
X
2
J i 'J u 7 3 3
10 11
12 13 14 15 16 l?
10
ly
20 21 22
23 24 2 5
^ CU3Cffi2r,s
was the responsibility of
-usroniar. If a Carbide person uin;e in end d u suipli.-ic
cho Conwed plant I would be very much surprised.
,iouii '/u ba surprised to h 2ar that satiolinn was done by Union Carbide at the point where the bigs w - > dumped into tne pulp slurry?
**
1 wouid b - surprised to find out that Union
C-rbide people did that, yes.
Q.
would you also be surprised'to find out that
sampling and testing were done by Union Carbide at the
poinw wnare the products ware being finished?
A. yes, I would be surprised to hear that.
Q.
DJcw, Look at Page 2 of the Asbestos Toxicologv
Report. It also says that, "?re-empicyment and periodic
physical examination of workers are desirable." Do you see that?
A Ybi3
Q.
And then it goes on to say, "These should
i n d u c e chest X-rays." Do you know why this particular
statement was made in the Asbestos Toxicology Report? What was the purpose of putting it in there'
A. -- WeiIt,- it's known that breathing excessive
quantities of asbestos will produce changes within the lung that show up on X-ray.
0.
Was it also known by you or the Union Carbide
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
2
j 4 5 j 7 a 9
10
il
12
ii 14 15 16 17 13 19
20 21 22
2 i 24 25
a*0 W J i 6* * ' * ' " th, ti* this Ash-.stos Th:cithlo5y iijport .vas wriitth that , ,, o t h , l i o c o u W ba ctussd by exposure co asbestos?
*'*
* a.:t not suro it was known at the tine chat
ihlS WdS ia
*ls~6ah in the earlier paragraph up here
cney talked about increase in the incidents of cancerous
tutors, especially of the lung.
0 . -..ouid you agree with me that mesothelioma is a -anourous tumor of the lining of the lung?
A.
That's right, I would agree with that.
Q * Let's move on to another exhibit.
MR. GOLDBERG: night Want to review the time.
Before you do that, you
MR. SROWNSON: It's five to 12:CO.
.
MR. JONES: Why don't we break now for
45 minutes for lunch.
(At this time a lunch recess was taken.) 6 f MR. BROWNSON:
Q.
Dr. Dernehl, the next thing I want to show you
is what's been marked as Dernehl Exhibit 5, and Dernehl
Exhibit 5 is a report by Doctor I. C. Sayers in England and with Union Carbide U .K . Limited. I will show it to you. I will ask you, first of all, have you ever seen that report oefore I have shown it to you right now?
A.
I really do not remember the report. i do
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
3
;
(612) 922-1955: : d S d a i,;,., _
i 13
.1
*`-numcur ;n ; request ror 'analytical t3sij O iATO X C.^
Jr. i or.
J
1
* ! j
3
* r
Nov; --
* *
It's p
t.iat pa
0
r\
k*
>y'r. _ c
7
spiti/iing or 7
ai ^ sac the report 3 xnc tire or 3 vox
j
A.
Let's
9
text. This would b;
10
Q.
Th a t 's
11
Analytical Assistance."
12
A. Yes.
13
Q.
r.vhat do you ramencer about that request'
1 -i a . Well, my recollection is that they -,,ptad
to use w * . analysis to h*lP to quantitatively
d-'iina the parameters to be used in - parameters c the 17 fibers that were to be used in testing.
i y18
Q-
And wno is the they that was making that
request, was that Dr. Timbrell?
20
* think it was probably -
21
Q*
Or Dr. Sayers?
*
22
A. - I... think if was probably a request of UICC. : 23
chink that they wanted help in defining this matter. Now, 24
witnout reading this line-by-line I couldn't tell you 25
specifically which individual'requested it.
14 y
KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
.
(612) 922-1955
1
v.
'..no is UICC?
z
a.
Thar was tha organization that was being set
3
p -o dst irnine the characteristics of the fibers that were
-
o be used in a series of tests to d a t e m i n e the effects of
5
sbestos in animals, animal oxperinentation.
j
0 . Wno was setting up this U1CC, I guess, is what
7
an wondering?
3 .
A.
The international organization.
9
Q.
Was Union Carbide involved with it?
10
A.
I think it was a European organization. Union
11
larbide would have been involved only tnrough the 3 ritisb
12
urgamzation.
13
q . was the 3 ritish organization Union Carbide, U.
14 K. Limited?
i5
A. Probably, yes.
16
Q.
That name is on the first page cf the Sayers'
17
report and, 1 guess, that's why I asked the question. You
13
wouldn't disagree?
.
19
A. NO.
-
20
q . Do you know Dr. I. C. Sayers?
21
A.
I don't know him, no.
22
Q t -- Have you-- ever heard of him?
23
A.
I don't know him. I haven't heard of him
24
other than what I would have gotten from this report.
25
'
Q.
You told us today that reports abouz .
15
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES /I'M
industrial hygiene or toxicology fren t'nicn Oarbid
Wo
* ! overseas subsidia: -'3 would bo routed to your department0
xr.ioit --
cota that be tru_- with this reoor - is .veil,
`*1. hARv'ARD: Is this exhibit 7?
A.
exhibit 5.
Q*
1 take that back, Exhibit 5 .
^ *-hink, s a matter of fact, we just wou1J
10
have been sort of on the fringes of this. This would be a
lx
request to go to the management people, since it involved
i.
commitment of laboratory facilities, people and the
13
finances t.nat were involved end medical would not be
14
involved in that part of it.
15
'J.
3 ut it, nevertheless, contains numerous
16
-oxicology and industrial hygiene conclusions from England,
17
and I am assuming that?
1 a
-
A.
I t 's possible.
ly
Q.
As such it would have come to your attention0
2
MR. JONES: Let me object to the
21
testimony of Counsel characterizing the document. Go ahead
22
and answer ic, Doctor.
2a
A.
I have stated that the only thing that I
24
rmember.about this document was a request for -- was the
25
only thing that makes me think I siw this document is I
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES t* * \ ^ ^ ia ef!
i n
1
'1.
,,r. .too?
2
A.
.'whatever year i: was.
J>
w.
..'Ou.d you agree wi:n :iii s,
Union Carbide
*T
seined some knowledge in the early 1950s, specifically 19 31
5
unu 19o2, by virtue of tneir own in-plant experience in
j
.vest Virginia?
7
A.
v/h^t we gained at that time was inf or nation on
3
the lust concentrations that ware present during certain
9
manufacturing operations and maintenance operations in the
j
iO
plant.
1
11
Q.
,,Tow, let rue ask you this, I have information
12
that indicates that you attended an IHF meeting in 1955.
j. j
First of all, did you regularly attend IHF meetings0
14
A.
I wouldn't say regularly. I attended a number
15
of tnem.
16
Q.
'would you agree that Union Carbide as a
17
founding member of IHF? .
13
A.
I would.
| i
lv
Q.
And were you ever on the board of directors of
:
'
\
t
20
IHF?
21
A.
I d o n 1t think so.
i
'
i
22
0.
Were you ever an officer of IHF
1
1
23
A.
No.
|
24
Q'.
And IHF was an organization that was begun
25
when?
i^t d o v a: rp^ J7.nv f. ASSOCIATES
A.
I really con't remember.
Ii8
2
a.
.r.iat -ices lilF scand for-7
.
J
A.
i,naujtritl .-iyoiens Foundation.
*
G.
And did you start attending maeti.ngs in the
5
1940s, that is after 1947?
'
6
r
I really don't recall, but I doubt that I did.
7
a.
And why is it that you doubt that-7
cS
A.
Becausa as a plant medical director we didn't
9
do much traveling.
10
Q.
v/han specifically in 1955 were you transferred
!
li
to New York from the Texas City plant?
12
k.
Officially July 1. I went than to New York
13
for about a week and then I spent a month in Pittsburgh
14
going through the records of Dr. A.G. Kramer, who was "the
;
15
medical director of the chemicals operations prior to the
'
16
time that I took over in 1955.
'
17
G.
Would it make sense to you that you would have
1
attended the IHF 20th Annual Meeting held in L3oveir.ber of
19
1955 in Pittsburgh?
20
A. I really can't say, but I might have.
21
Q. Well, I think the gist of my question is based
22
on the position that you held as of November of 1955, would
23
it make sense to you that you would have or may have
24
attended?
'
'
25
A.
I might have attended, yes.
__________________________________________________________ ________<
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
:
-
( 6 1 2 ) 9 2 2 - 1 ^ 5 ^ ^ ^ : :..,
.
.
1
J.
* assume :`.ut you .'.on't nave i soecific
2
recollection one ou/ or another?
.
j
iriac le corrcc.
t
w*
i know chi s 'o b s bc*.ck u ways# bue Jid you
r
nave any discussions with the president of Johns-:ianvi1 le
U
Corporation et any cime during your career with Union
7
Carbide?
' a
A.
uot to the test of my knowledge. I don't even
9
know who the president cf Johns-Manvilie was or is.
10
Q.
You don't recognize the name then A. R.
i 1
rischer at ail?
'
i 2
r\. Jo way..
l
Q.
And when you came on board in 1947, it's .ny
14
understanding that you personally knew that asbestos could
15
cause asbestosis?
15
A. That's correct.
:
17
Q.
And you gained that knowledge from what, your
13
mediual education?
;
19
A. Tha_t 's correct.
\
20
Q. At the University of Wisconsin"3
21
A. That's correct.
22
Q.
And yo.u understood when you came on board with
2 J
Union Carbide in 1947 that asbestosis could be fatal?
24
A. That's correct.
'
2 5
Q.
And you also knew that in 1947 asbestos was a
'
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
.. _ 1
A1i
disease, is tnat true?
2
A rkSdc 5 tO 3i3 Wo S a prCgresSi/i disease, at 1z
correct.
IZ
4
w*
And you also, I assume, had knowledge in 19 17
5
~hau -sbosaosis was in part related to the dosage chat one
6
ir.naied or ingested"7
7
A.
That one inhaled, not ingested. It has
3
nothing to do with swallowing.
'
?
0 . I guess in terms of asbestosis you are
,
10
absolutely correct, I stand corrected. Now, did you gain
iJ. =ny knowledge whatsoever, be it by fact or theory, that
12
asbestos had a propensity to set up a reaction that could
i j
lead to cancer?
1
14
A.
This came to my attention in the early`50s
:
15
and prior to that I had no knowledge of this.
I
i
1 o
Q. So it's your testimony today that at r.o time
1
i
17
prior to the early. '60s did you even have a hint that
i G
asbestos could cause cancer?
13
A. That's correct.
j
20
Q.
Do you know a Dr. Henshaw, Corwin Henshaw?
21
' A. . I know the name. I don't recall that I have
22
over met the man.
23
0.
Do you have any recollection of any textbooks
24
that you have seen written by Dr. Corwin Henshaw?
"
25
A. I have not seen any.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
'
/C t *>' n
''T r . `
J.
'dou wGo:t Z'.-io years of crial residency in .
2
Pi=viir.;ve Medicine and internal Medicine, is tnat
t'-'
J
a . r.'.u's correct.
4
i
''- - you av'sr board certified in any s p e c i 'itv''
j
4.
1 uo boara certified in the specialty of
6
Occupational Medicine.
7
2 when did you become firstboardcertified7
a
n.. In 1955 .
9
Q.
To your knowledge is there any board
.
10
certification or was there ever any board certification for
;
X T -*
Preventive Medicine?
12
A.
Yes, the subspecialty of Occupational Medicine
:
13
is -- the certification in occupational medicine is a
x4
subspecialty under the 3oard of Preventive Medicine.
15
Q.
What is your definition of preventative
16
medicine?
17
A. Preventive medicine is that science of
18
medicine which is devoted to the prevention of illness and
iy
disease in human beings.
j
20
Q.
And if a person is board certified in 1955 in
i
!
21
Occupational Medicine, that I assume would include the
j
22
specialty of Preventive Medicine, is that true?
j
23
A.
That was a part of it, yes.
24
Q.
Did you ever study, in connection with your
25
medical training, industrial hygiene?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
1
.-v. do, I aid not.
Z2
*>
w'.
Was there a board certification for the
i
specialty of toxicology in 1955?
-
A. There was not.
3
1.
And since that time, to ycur knowledge, is
w
:iiere suen a board certification-'
7
a.
I am not sura. I think there may be.
8
Q.
./hen you came on board with Union Carbide in
9
1947, did Union Carbide have an industrial hygiene
0
department?
lx
rV
In '47?
1 X
S*
In 1947.
*3
A.
ho, they did no
14
d.
And subsequent
13
rtment , didn't they?'
1
A Yes, they did.
17
Q.
When did Union
18
industrially hygiene department?
19
A.
Well, if one man is considered a department I
20
would say about 1953.
21
Q.
And the one man you are speaking of, that
22
wouldn't have been Mr. Peele, would it?
23
A.
Ho, that v/as Mr. Paul McDaniel.
24
Q.
How, since 1953, taking it up to 1979 .when you
25
retired from Union Carbide, would you agree that the
KIRBY A. KSNLJEDY & ASSOCIATES
indus criai hygine J 2 auct .7.0 ne 7 raw by -jays m u ;oar. j
.P.. JOMEJ:
/ill object te the :orn c:
.no cjuciiion 4
,iP. POLK: He understnds the question.
5
II2 is chinking 4 .tout it.
j
a.
Tha corporate- industrial hygiene dsperenent
7
griw fro.a one run to about six man and, in addition to that,
d
we had an industrial hygienist and in soma instances two
9
industrial hygienists at three plant locations.
10
q . Now, would you agree that between 1953 and
11
1959 or '79 that the industrial hygiene department worked
12
in tandum with the medical department of Union Ci_fcid2
13
A.
I would say yes.
14
3.
in your opinion, as an associate medical
15
director at Union Carbide, did there exist incontrovertible
16
evidence as of June 1937 that asbestos coui.d cause
17
mesothelioma?
1 O
A.
Clarify a word for me. Did you say
19
incontrovertible?
Q.
Incontrovertible or, if you prefer,
uncontrovertible, if there is such a word.
22
KR. GOLDBERG:. Evidence that you can't
23
controvert.
24
A.
I would not consider in 1967 that it was
25
incontrovertible. In 1967 there was a growing probability
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
r s * \
1 dK
' ' '
tinai i.
./es a relationship between asbestos m e
i'Z-Y
2
mesothelioma, but there -vas evidence coining uc at intervals
./lien suggested that this night not be the case.
4
0
As you sit here today, do you believe that it
5
is incontrovertible that asbestos can cause mesethe 1 icrr.a?
6
A.
I think --
7
MU. JONES: Any kind of asbestos7
a
MR. POLK: That's what the question was,
9
Counsel.
10
A.
I think that mesothelioma -- I mean that
il
asbestos can cause mesothelioma.
i 2
Q.
And that that proposition, in your opinion as
i 3
you sit here today, is incontrovertible7
1 4
A.
I think that is true of some cases. Not all
15
cases are caused by asbestos.
i o
Q.
That's not the question though. The question
17
is is it, in your opinion as you sit here today,
1J
incontrovertible that asbestos can cause mesothelioma?
19
A.
Yes.
2u
Q.
low, tell me the period of time or the date or
21
the year, as best as you can between 1967 and today's dates
22
when you formulated.in your own mind that it was
23
incontrovertible that asbestos can cause mesothelioma7
24
A. I would say in the early '70s.
25
Q. Now, follow that up with me, if you will, and
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES it\cc-.' 'TStWB
''li what the basis is that you rely upon or relied upon
than to come to that conclusion?
w
rt. Vue -piJonioicyiocil studies which vers '.one on
4 various work groups .vieieh -- reliable cpi deniclog i .1
5 studies on various work groups which demonstrated a
6
statistical association between asbestos exposure ir.::
7 i.Vi3O tool ioiTia
o
C. And in your opinion was there on absence of '
3 statistical data connecting asbestos to mesothelioma prior
10
to that time?
j. r
A.
There was an absence of valid epidemiological
12
studies. The great majority of studies which had been done
at that time had some serious flaws which raised some
14
question as to the validity of the conclusions that were
1 5
reached.
1C
2.
Tell me specifically what you are relying upon
17
or what you relied upon in coming to that the conclusion
id
that those studies were invalid?
19
A.
One of them was that they failed to take into
2U
account the question of smoking.
21
Q.
What I am asking you is to identify the
22
studies that you reviewed that led you to the conclusion?
23
A.
I really can't recall what the specific
24
stuuies were that led to those conclusions.
25
Q.
Fair enough. Am I to take it, however, from
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES "
'
*i. . / ,.t
,2 j 4 5 5 7 d . 9
10
11 12 13 14. 15 16 17 18
19 20
21
22 23 24 25
cur testimony tcauy m a t you in fact personally rtvi.ew.-ci crtuin studies regarding the connection between asbestos
12 0
.ad mesotheiloat prior to 195/?
A.
I don't believe that any of those typss of
tudies really existed prior co 1967. Prior to 1967 we
rera in a positron where people were counting casts of
lesothaliomci and loosing at exposure to asbestos and making
in association which might or might not have been valid.
Q.
Did you at that time consider those cases to
re solely case studies as opposed to the epidemiological
studies that you --
A.
I believe, yes, that they were case type
studies. 3.
Ycu taught Occupational Medicine for five
years, correct?
A.
Well, more than that. I continued teaching
occupational Medicine until the day I retired. hhen I left
the University I was given a visiting lectureship at the
University ana then Baylor Medical College in Houston asked
me to teach Occupational Medicine for them until 1955.
(When I transferred to Mew York, I was given the title of
clinical assistant professor of Occupational Medicine by
Clew York University. I taught there several times a year
from 1955 until my retirement until 1979.
Q.
Do you have anyone in mind that you consider
'
.'.riM.il .
KIRBY A. KENNEDY ^ASSOCIATES. 4 5 ^
40 be the, quota unquote,
12-7
"Fucner of Cccuparionai .!.><2ic :n j "5
2
4.
i cuass you .,'cuid have to go tuck uc that
a
/anerabla character known -as 'Jrfcano Pozzani.
4
Q.
Ana did you rely on any particular
5
occupational medicine text in your academic endeavors' /hen
o
you were tc^ohinj?
7
A.
There ./as one, I can't remember his cam;, but
a
it was -- 1 can't really remember the name of the text.
9
Q.
You did in fact, however, utilize a textbook
j
10
for the teaching of occupational medicine, is that right-5
|
11
A. There was such a text, yes, and ,/e used it.
;
12
But as much as anything else we researched the literature
j
13
and used information from the literature.
i
14
Q. You have used the word hazard on several
1
15
occasions when you have been testifying '-ire. Can you
i
1 o
define the word hazard as you have used ic?
17
A. Hazard would be the probability of a material
.
id
causing harm under given conditions of exposure.
j
i
19
Q. Let me be a litrtle bit more specific now than
j
20
I was earlier. Is this a true statement, that in 1947 when
21
you came on board at Union Carbide you understood
22
chrysotile asbestos_fiber could cause asbestosis, is thac
23
true?
24
A.
Th at 's correct.
23
'
C.
And have you personally participated or
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . , - . ..
* - - - ^
mv
' :'
2 ,8
1
oirauceu co be dona,
ptrciciereeu ir. or directed to Vc on 2 ,
2 any atuuias of any r.acura ,,hatsoever for tha purpose of
w -atar*r.ining tha toxicity of chryactil. atbaatos fibar whar.
4
comparer co other typ^s?
j
r`"
I .itaVe not participated in any studies which
6
compared the typs of chrysotil toxicity to the toxicitv
7
of other asbestos fibers.
ti Can you tell rue up to 1979 when you retired
9
whether you have any information at all that would indicate
10
that Union Carbide ever did a study or commissioned a study
li
for determining the toxicity of chrvsotila asbestos fiber
12
as compared to another type of fiber?
13
A.
Hot that I know of.
j. 4
Q.
And, furthermore, can you tall me, up to 1979
x 5
when you retired, whether or not Union Carbide ever did any
1 o
kind of studies whatsoever concerning the carcinogenicity
17
of Chrysotile asbestos?
lu
A.
Not that I know of.
19
C-
Did you have arvy involvement with Union
20
Carbide as a consulting physician after 1979?
21
A.
I had a contract with Union Carbide from 1979
22
to 1982, at -wh-ich-ttm^- the contract lapsed and anything I
23
have done since then has been as an individual contractor.
24
Q.
Have you served Union Carbide as an
25
independent contractor since 1982?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES.
a. Y-a.
Z<?
Q . And I con'c want to be repetitious, bur h-.vs ii | you ever jervod or Union Carbide as an indaoindent
! contractor since 1932 with reference to anything having
anyw'r.ing to do witn asbestos?
A.
Oniy the one case that I indicated early on in
which 1 was asked to make a deposition and for various
reasons it fall through.
9
Q. Now, were you aware of any Worker's
10
Compensation claims being assertadbyworkers of Union
11
Carbide for asbestos related diseases of any kind prior to
12
19 7 U ?
13
A. No, I am not.
14
Q.
How about after 1970'5
15
A. I believe thare were a coupleof cases of
16
alleged asbestosis at Institute in Charleston from the
17
period 1970 until the tine I retired. Just how many there
13
wera. I don't recall.
19 . 20
w.
Do you profess any expertise in the araa of
air sampling?
21
A. No.
22
Q. pn yon understand the concept of time weighted
23
average?
24
A.
I think so.
25
'
Q.
Do you understand the concept of total
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955' V
IS 1
concentration in terms of dust studies?
2
A.
Well, I don't really know what you mean by
3
total concentration.
4
Q. How about just the word concentration?
5
A. Do I understand the meaning of the term
j
6
concentration?
;!
7
Q. Yes.
!
i
8
A. Yes.
!
9
Q. As the associate medical director did you have
10
any interfacing, if you will, with any other manufacturers
11
of asbestos or asbestos-containing products?
12
A.
No.
j
.
i
|
13
Q. Did you have any relationship with a Dr.
i
14
Lewinsohn at Raybestos Manhattan at any time?
15
A. NO.
.
I
16
Q. Did you share correspondence with other
i
17
asbestos manufacturers?
!
i
18
A. No.
19
Q. Do you know what Bakelite is?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. Did you ever participate in any kind of
22
studies concerning Bakelite?
23
MR. JONES: Object on the grounds of
24
relevancy.
25
MR. POLK: Do you want me to show you
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
. *-*
(612) 922-1955 '
. 2 j 4 5 o 7 O . 9
10 il
12
13 x415 1G i7 18 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
ns axles recoras mdi cs t i ng Bikelite sales to Cor.wel7
131
You
luvj them. Tiurc are all kinds of rules of 3ak^lite to
Conwed.
iv-l. JONES: Do you have then?
.lx. POLK: I don't know if I have oh on
with .tie. I will be nappy to share it with you when I g_-t
back. 1 will warrant that to you on the record, that
Bakelite was sold to Conwed.
MR. LAURA: When?
MR. POLK: Between 1954 and 1963.
A. Repeat your question.
Q. Sure. Did you participate at all in any
studies concerning Bakelite?
A. In studies, no.
Q.
Do you understand what Bakelite is used for7
A.
I know Bakelite is a phenol formaldehyde resin,
n ' s used in molding various types of things like light
fixtures and pan lids, I mean pan handles, and things of
that type.
'
0.
And would you agree that Bakelite contains
asbestos?
..
-
A. Mot to the best of myknowledge.
Q.
So it would be your opinion, as you sit here
today, that as fur as you know Bakelite never contained
asbestos?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
X
A.
It wouii be. my opinion that the phenol
2
m
ormaidehyae resin wnicn composed ddkelice did not cor.to in
J
asbestos. It Quid be possible that there night be sons
4
varieties of asbestos that -- I rean some varieties of
5
Bakelite that had asbestos added to then. I don't know
6
about that. I don't know all of the product breakdowns of
:
!
7
Bakelice.
I
.
i
o
Q.
I will read you an answer to Onion Carbide's
j
i
9
interrogatories. It says, "Bakelite was a compounded
10
mixture of phenolic resin, tetramine, lubricant and fillers,
'
i
II
one of which was chrysotileasbestos."
i
i
12
UR. JONES:Identify the exhibit.
\
l
13
A.
That night be one particular product of the
14
3akelite. For example, we sold iiakelite under something
15
like B:<3 400. This might have been 3KS 730.
16
C. Well, was3akelitemarketed by UnionCarbide
j
17
in granular form?
j
1 b
A. Yes.
j
19
MR. JONES: Can you identify the --
j
I
20
MR. POLK: No. Youhave them. I d o n 't
|
.
I
21
think I am obligated to identify the sources.
22
.
MR. LAURA: Sure you are. If you are
23
reading from a document at a deposition you have to let us
24
know what it is.
'
'
25
MR. POLK: I wasn't reading from a
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ..-.j.,
.
1
do cement
/
1R. LAURA: I saia if you ire reefing
f-ti
J
rein a docuaant we a;s entiti 2ci to know.
4
uU.ir,B : I will move to strike the
5
exchange on the basis of what he -was reading vas net
5
identified.
7
BY ,,lA. POLK:
o
o. Then, I will go through it without reading
9
from the document. Doctor, was Bakelite marketed in
10
granular form?
11
A. Yes.
12
j Doctor, was there a single purpose for the
13
drafting of he Asbestos Toxicology Report?
Xi*f.
A.
A single purpose?
i 3
Q.
Yes. Tnat would be a yes or a no answer,
1 o
tr.ink.
17
A.
Yes.
IB
Q.
And what was the singular purpose for the
19
Asbestos Toxicology Report?
`
20
A.
A request on the part of the marketing people
21
for such a statement.
22
0.' And are you able to tell us the degree of
23
involvement that you had with the drafting of the Asbestos
24
Toxicology Report in comparison to Dr. Lane?
25
x can't- remember the details of something like
` '
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
'
~
(612) 922-?19 55/
.
J.
Chat .
2
.
Now, to th e bus t of year recollection wan th:
3
ciscase of mesothelioma jvjr included in any asbestos
T
toxicology report whicn came from you or your department-3
5
*
I really couldn 't answer that. I have no --
6
don't have cna document to look at, the host of documents,
7
to see whether we
used the term mesothelioma or not.
4
b
I am afraid I can'; answer your question.
9
Q.
Wer.' asbestos toxicology reports reviewed on
10
any time interval basis; in other words, were they reviewed
il
annually or more often than that for any purpose'3
12
A.
Are you talking about Union Carbide toxicology
13
reports?
14
0. That's correct.
15
A.
I don't beiieve that they were on any regular
l6
review basis.
17
Q.
Would you agree that as of 1367 you were
ld
xnowiadgeable that there was not a particular safe dose of
19
asbestos for the development of mesothelioma?
20
A. No, I don't know that today.
21
0.
Maybe I should rephrase that. Did you have
22
knowledge in 1967 that the development of mesothelioma from
23
exposure to asbestos could occur with less dosage than that
24
needed to produce asbestosis?
25
A.
No, I did not know that.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6X2) 9 2 2 - W 5
f3 ^
i
Die you rove any knowledge or idrx if cr.it-3
2
r.
I hod or ooinion that ch-t .r.iuhc he ch.
j
C.
And where did that opinion tret you f e m u l a t e d
4
in 13e7 cone from;
5
T.rit'i r.aru te say. I would say choc it was
b
3 'ust a judgmental decision on my p.-irt at chat tine.
7
w.
.veil, would you agree with no chat an opinion
3
of chat nature e mulat ed at that tine would have needed
4
some basis?
.
IG
A.
Not necessarily.
11
Q. Did choc just pep into your mind then"
12
A. It's one of those things that when you pull
13
orf something like this why you are concerned cbouc a
14
disoase like mesothelioma and it appears to you chit a
i 5
level of five particles per cubic foot .night not bo low
x 6
enough to protect against a serious disease like
17
mesothelioma.
x 3
Q.
Ana, as I understand it, you found Mr. Bayers'
14
l?o7 report to be reasonably accurace,- is that correct? I
20
will show you the document if you would like, but I will
21
warrant to you that chat's what your letter to Dr. Hall
22
says.
2 J
A. Yes, I remember the letter.
24
Q. All righc.
25
A.
Yes, I would say that's probably true.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ( fil2 } 9 2 2 - J 95S :'**' -
Jm
o
4 3
6
/ . 3
9
10
11
12
i j 14 15 io 17 id 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
-u.
Ar.d Without looking at Mr. Sayers' .-inert,
you sit here today, do you have u recollection os co
whotnor Mr. Sayers' raport addressed the disease of mesothelioma?
13d
A.
My recollection is chat it did.
w * And uo you recollect, as you sit here today
without reviewing your letter of June of 1957, whether or
not that letter - I take it it's the letter, lot tie make
sure, whather that draws upon Mr. Sayers' report, that is tne contents of the raport?
like
MR. JONES: I will obgect. to look at the letter again --
If you would
A.
I nave looked at so
sura what you are talking about.
many documents I
am not
Q. Well, I am talking specifically about the
letter that-you wrote to Dr. Hall which I think you saw before your deposition here today, it's your June '67 letter to Dr. Hall?
BY MR. POLK:
MR. JONES: Dernehl Exhibit 33.
0
Your Counsel has given you a copy of the
letter, has he not?
A. Yes.
Q.
Now, my question to you is this, as you are
sitting there in your chair right now reviewing the letter
"
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .
r
~
(612) 922-1955
.
y 0 'J ;'aVi '",y ~ ' - c i U c :ion o drawing J?on .... j c-i'joit m dr arting tie contents of Ennibit 3 3 ?
.% Not reeliy.
s-
Ana suiting aside chs latter or t actent, =3
you n,,..e ,ay recollection or crafting any docuccots of any
^inc, Doctor, wherein you relied upon the contante of .ir.
layers' report?
lio,-I do not recall such , document.
'
0-
Did you have any input - I think you talked
-arlie. in your testimony about some kind of warning that
was put on to the containers of asbestos, do you recall that?
A.
Right.
C. issue?
'.'That kind of involvement did you have in that
A.
Ail of tne products that Union Carbida sold
had soma sort of a lable on it. Union Carbida had what
cney called a label committee, it was a part of tha
chemicals and plastics division but it acted as a label
committee for the whole corporation. The label committee
was comprises of the medical department, law department,
transportation, marketing and fire and safety protection
and chemical reactivity groups and when somebody had a
product that they wanted to market they submitted a request for a label to the label committee.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
X 2 j 4 5
6
7 b 9
10
il
12
13
I 4
15
10
17 13 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
Q. uid tha `7,3dlcal department, have any
involvement witr. the label coOiMiccce'5 A Yes.
o.
Did you personally?
A.
5 a .
Q.
Ware you a member of the label cor.mi
A.
Yes.
Q.
Were you a member of the label commi
between i963 and 1979?
'
I 38
A*
1 WdS d nember of the label committee from
1955 until 1973 whan I withdrew from that activity,
Q ' Did the label committee keep minutes? A. Yes.
Q. there a secretary to that committee?
A.
Yes.
2.
Who was the secretary of the labeling
immunity between 1965 and about 1975?
A.
I don't know about; as early as '65. I know at
" g<-ntl_man by tne name "of Jim Chatsworth was the
ccretary.
.
0
./hat position or what department would he have
Oiiie from? ---------- -
A.
He was in, I am not sure, shipping, I think,
n South Charleston.
Q.
When was the first time that labeling of
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES *-- ----- ----- .v.
daO .`S C03 p rouuc
r\ I
Q.
,e
n Ye
.4
-5
i W-i3 it V 3r .iSwLijsS'i
mdpoint ccncernir.g the labeling o*:
cue asbest C5 *"
i Y;
9
0.
AAni d were those recommendations geared towards
10
the wording of
A-.Ji.
A. Y
12
0. n
1 3
yourself, draf
14
A.
1r
15
it to tne iabe
lb
w
1How, was the draft of the label for the
17
asbestos that you did, whenever that './as aone, was tha.
1 b
adopted by the committee?
` 19
A.
oh, gee, it night have been adopted with soma
20
minor revision". I really ca n't answer that.
21
q.
Did you at any time or anyone from your
22
department at any time- make a suggestion to the labeling
23
committee that notification of potential cancers be
24
included on a label?
25
A.
It was discussed.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
1 w . .\nd i t was ultimately rejected, is that rig / c
2
A.
I don 't recall the exact wording which, was
J
-iy JS u
4
-*\ Wail, Doctor, I am just asiting you if the u
5
were cancer was rejected by the committee, that's
o
7
A.
Yes, but I think that they selected sera
a
alternative language and I was trying to remember whit it
9
was
10
Q.
Whenever the labeling committee met and
li
wnenever tnese discussions were going on, and I understand
12
chat you can't recall the time, can you tell me this, were
13
discussions concerning the labeling of asbestos produced bv
in
union Carbide, were tnose discussions ongoing over the
13
years?
.
1 'o
A*
They were from the standpoint that there were
17
alterations in the product over the years which resulted in
16
rhe need for a new label.
19
Q.
And Wiiat altera-tions were made to the product
20
that required that?
21
A.
Well, for one thing, they prepared a so-called
22
coated product-,-- whuch-- ended up on the basis of all
2 a
acceptable knowledge at that day and time as having no
24
carcinogenic hazard and it was a product which, for example,
25
was exempt under the 08HA regulations. So that required a
KIRBY A . KRNMP!T)Y . ic c n p r s 'i'p c
-a:n
i..n. x<.u1-.C.*'-ilf iri^
Nl
f
o.
wGull you agree with
on this, that you
!
in
7
.i13-J1.05 uoula causa serious bodr. ly n s m "5
*"
I
chat asbestos, whan inhaled in
rfsoessive quantities, could procure the disease asbestos.s
In 1947 when you held that opinion, what was your definition of excessive quantities?
-unytnir.g in excess of ten particles per cubic
9
root greater than ten microns in length.
1 0 Q. And, Doctor, as far as the Union Carbide
1 1 asbestos is concerned, can you tell me how many particles
12
per cubic foot one .needs to be able to see it?
rA
13 ^ ain sure I can do that.
14 yu ovar learn, while you were the
15
associate medical director, that there needed to be a
It?
certain number o C o a l i n g or Calridia fibers in , cubic
17
foot of air before it was visible?
18
A.
That was outside of my area of knowledge or
19
competence to judge.
_
2 0
Q.
Would you have been interested in knowing
21
information from the Union Carbide industrial hygiene
2 2
department tnn t unless there were more than ten particles
23
per cubic foot you couldn't even see the stuff?
24
(
MR. JONES: Object to the question as
V
25
calling for speculation.
.
KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES
1
Va
FOLK: I an asking if h: would hi
2
Ofeen xnce.-isc 3d in knowing that information when ha -, 3 the
associate meuical director.
4 *,ot P-iCticolariy. 've had industriai
5 hygienists that worried about that particular aspect.
6 0 . 3o you wouldn't nava necessarily been
7 interested in knowing that oven in your capacity as being
6
on the labeling committee?
9
A.
Th at 's right.
1 0 MR. JONES: I will object to the
ix
question as argumentative, c-o anead.
12
BY MR. POLK:
i5 '*. i.n your opinion, as a member of the labeling 14- com:ruttee for several years, do you personally feel that it Jn.,-3 does any good to warn a user of Union Carbide asbestos
l
fiber to not breathe dust that they can't see?
17 .MR. JONES: Object to that on the basis
18
i- -ails for speculation. It's beyond the witness's stated
19
wxpe-tise. Go ahead and answer in you can. Also, as to
20
the form of the question as to the words whether it does
21
any gooa being vague and ambiguous. Go ahead and answer.
22 3 because you can't see a gas but you warn
23
people about breathing gas. So it's the same sort of a
24
warning.
25
Q.
And to your knowledge was the word cancer ever
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES. .
Ub-xi oy Union Jarb-ua xn xonnejtior. with its asb-.ntcs
2
produces 1 -baling?
i
.a .
T:u labeling I don't recall,
4
v
anat x3 tne a/eruga length cf a OiliOrir.
5
-sbestos fiber?
o
Average length is somewhere under five
ons,
7
recall.
3
'j.
And you certainly are familiar with the
y
standards tnat have been used by industrial hygienists for
10
a xong time as far as the counting of asbestos fibers I
ii
assume, is that true?
i2
A.
1 am familiar that they count them. I don't
13
know exactly how they do it. That's their business.
14
Q.
Have you ever had an occasion to do any
15
counting under a microscope cf a filter containing asbestos
i 6
f iba-r?
17
A.
Uo, I have not.
la
Q.
Do you know what the aspect ratio is for a
iy
particular fiber to be count-ed as an asbestos fiber?
20
A.
I don t xnow what you are talking about.
2 x
Q.
I am going to show you what I have marked as
22
Plaintiff s Exhibit 3u24. I will represent to you it's the
20
September 1, 1972 material data safety sheet which you saw
24
before, and I think you indicated that it was incomplete
25
because it didn't have another paga connected to it. I
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
U u n 'c :hink ta-r-
-ny follow up on that. ,oulo yc ,
Cti,'e a look
1 have here ana toll me if the 3 :con
p-ago :na: is now connected co the first pagj nukes that
uccument couiDiete?
'* .nat now makes tne document ccmoiete.
Q.
And, again, I don't want to be repetitious,
cut as I recall your testimony, while you had involvement
witn the labeling conmittae, you didn't have any
9 xnvoivement m the crafting of material safety data sheets?
i
A.
Mo, that's not trua. I did not have any
11
particular input into drafting this material safety data
12
snaet.
li Q. Can you answer this, with the document you
14
nave got in your hand, the September 1 , 1972 sheet,, would
JL J}
there have bean anybody in the medical department that
J. O
would have had input other than yourself?
A.
13
Dr. Lane.
If there was medical input in it, it came from
19
Q.
Yfhon did Dr. Lane, by the way, leave Union
20
Carbide?
21
A.
Gee, I am not sure. I would say probably '83.
22
-------MR*. JONES: Do you mind if we mark that7
2 j
MR. POLK: Go ahead, sure.
24
(At this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit
25
46 was marked for identification by the
KIRBY A. KENNEDY fit ASSOCIATES
L. !
1 1
:i:i. u0 L'j Dn. C erns ki. :vi-it has
1 ij been ,r.ur.<-.J a* Oernehl Exhibit
that's :ha - t ?r ;
4 1,,.
.
; f
j;a siia^c that ycu w=r a just tailing about'
J
-- -
Yes.
o IR. J-JNE3: Thank you.
^Y MR, POLK;
\HS
' a
Q.
would ycu egret with this, that us of I960
9
Onion Carbide
o v ,..-,-u_ .. . - V i - S K c . u a it's 3mploy to t.st
1 0 ambient air levels for asbestos' .
11
1"IR* JCW2S: Object to the form of the
i2
question.
Test, you raean the capability of testing?
13
BY MR. POLK
i4
Q.
Do you not understand that question'
15
A.
Vas. w. hud p a r t , who wars cap.bl. of nakino
i 0 determinations of air concentrations.
17
0.
And would you also agree that as of 1960 Union
13
Carbide had
the equipment within it's possession to test
13
ambient air levels for asbestos?
20
A.
At some locations.
21
Q.
And would you aiso agree that as of 19S0 Union
22
Carbide had
witnirL A t_ 5 employ experts who could evaluate
2.
the testing
for purposes of determining those levels?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
And m your opinion would Union Carbide's
K1 KB x A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
1r i \ ~
(
. .4
---- -------. ;,
-xp-rtise in m . tescing of u.bi.ac sir l.vs.s ^ rtt
f U
counting of asbsscos fit.ro, .ould chut .xn ^ti st hrvo
batten
ootcor
or
worj^
^
U<-J - oilier.
19u0
. =nd
1972?
4 ;iR* J0N~3: 3b]act on luck of foundatio:
5
You cun answer, if /ou can.
oY lit* PuliKj
~w \
In your opinion?
A. -4o. It would have improved because, for on-2
9 -rung, the technology of sampling and of idantification had
10
improved.
11
Q-
And in your opinion, if you have one, is there
12
any expertise required for the counting of asbestos fibers
1 2
in the ambient air?
'
14
A. Yes.
15 16 17 13 19
20
21
22
23
2. Can you categorize thedegree of expertise tnee in your opinion is necessary for that to be done?
A- Ho, i can't do that.
0.
And are you familiar with any kind of training
program offered by Union Carbide concerning the testing of
ambient air levels for asbestos that were offered to any
personnel within the employ of Union Carbide at any time^
A. -- i-raally-have no reliable knowledge in that degree on that question.
24
Q
You were apparently shown some documents last
25
night when you met with v , - , .
,
.
r
ltn your attorneys from Union Carbide,
KIRBY A. KENNEDY c iaen/-> mtpc
:s u.idc rijhc?
A. A 1 give.
you represented '.vsre tcd;y?
A. An I represented here coeuy?
Q.
Yq s , cy
attorney.
A. Two of then.
Maybe 3 V3 a three of then'
A. Maybe von three. I forcoc bout him.
Q. Did you retain these attorneys last night?
A.
To.
Q.
Ocher than the document, which I b i 1ievs
consists of the letter that you wrote to Dr. hall in
'67 --
A.
Yes.
Q. I want to know each and every docunent chat you reviewed last night with your attorneys.
A. That is the only document we looked at.
Q. When you left Union Carbide in 1979, did you take any documents with you?^
A. I did not.
Q. 197 9?
And who took your position, if anyone, in
A. I don't think anybody took my position.
Q. And I want to confirm with you that I have a
correct understanding of your prior testimony, correct me
) HI
. ; ; ; I i j iI i ; ; : I I t i
.
.
i
2
J 4 5 o 7 3 3
10
t t 1. 12
10
14 i5 16 17 18 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
i: 1 a.a vrony, th^c in the 194Cs vcu recognized a concern
^ ^
dsbiSCOS u.1 ea r.}1 :atinU to insu1 u~ors us ing asbestos,
is thac tru-i?
A.
'Ihat's correct.
C.
And cue reason that you recognized tha:
-nut time was because insulators in the field were
manipulating, sawing, and doing other things in the field
With asbestos containing pipe insulation, block insulation
and that sort of thing, is that right?
'
A.
That's correct.
0.
And, Doctor, do you understand or have any
knowledge concerning whether or not asbestos is an
ingredient in gasket type products?
a . hy knowledge is that it is in some gaskets, yes
0!*
Do you have any knowledge from any source
w.natsoever that would indicate to you whether or not the
asoestos within gasKet type products is a potential hazard?
A.
It is a aazard -in certain types of gaskets.
Q*
n/as Union Carbide, to your knowledge, ever a
producer of any asbestos-containing gaskets or packing Material? ___________
A.
Not that I know of.
Q.
Do you have an opinion as to whether or not
in-place asbestos-containing insulation products such as
k i r b y a . Ke n n e d y & iicnpisTP
M
rh'.t
'J
lou want to .<iiow if I have un opinion7 Y's,
4
iijve an opinion.
5
Ail right. That is your opinion'7
6
a . t\j opinion is that as long -as the
7
asb _scos--containing material is not disturbed it is not a
d
hazard.
-
9
w.
Do you have an opinion as to whether or not
10
in-place asbastos-containing insulation products posa a
1 L
nazard if they ara disturbed?
12
A.
Yjs.
i J
Q v/hat is your opinion?
14
A.
if they release asbestos into the air tnay are
15
a hazard.
16
Q.
And do you have any opinions, based on any
17
source from I guess anywhere, as to v/hat the airborne
id
characteristics are of asbestos fibers? I mean to use a
19
different word as opposed tcuairborne.
20
21
BY MR. POLK:
M R . ER0WN30N: Aerodynamic?
22
0 -- Do...you-- knew anything about the aerodynamics of
2 i
asbestos fiber?
2h
A.
None whatsoever.
25
U.
And you don't have any recollection of seeing
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
an-i
,
1
.in/ reports, while you ware the issociat 2 rr.acica'
2
concerning the i-odynojiics of asbestos fiber0
Ifv
J
"0:: `-*rac 1 can recall.
4 Q. Ann do you have an opinion, as you sit bar a
5
-oa*.y, Lr.at leaas you to a definite conclusion that
6
cnrysociie asbestos cannot cause mesothelioma0
7 AK. JONES: I will object to the fern of
6
the question as compound. Answer it if you c m .
'
9 A. Do I have an opinion that chrysotile asbestos
10
cannot cause mesothelioma?
11
Q. Yes.
12
A. No.
13
Q. No what?
14 A. No, I don't have an opinion that it cannot.
15
Q. Do you have an opinion, with reasonable
16
medical certainty, that chrysotile asbestos in fact can
17
cause mesotheiiona?
15
-
A.
Providing that the exposure of an individual
19
is sufficient to bring about such a condition, yes.
20
Q.
Let ne just back up for a minute and get the
21
basis for your last opinion chat chrysotile can cause
22
mesothelioma. What's the basis for your opinion?
23
A.
That it can cause?
24
Q.
Yes.
.
25
A.
Well, there is sufficient valid
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
-'?la L-.ruclerical studies today co indicate that rhrys oc h i j s;atos can cause meso the1 icma, -L-ing cancers. .nd t.i?r:
j IS even more cuncxusire evidence available that the ; c'-obao i1 1 cy of t.tis occurring is enhanced ten times or mor
if an individual smokes.
w.
Are you of the opinion that there is anv
ynorgiscic affect between cigarette smoke and asbestos a:
=i-c*`-,s uO tne disease of mesothelioma?
A.
Yes.
'
Q. A. is evidence
Ana wnat's chat opinion based on? lndi opinion is based on the fact that ther hat the asbestos fiber picks uo the
carcinogenic materials from cigarette smoke, binds
and
carries it with ic wnerever it goes.
Q.
Tell me,
lung cancer?
in your opinion,
is masothai lema a
A.
Not as such. It's a cancer of connective
tissue tnat lines the lung cavity and it lines the
intestinal cavity.
`
Q.
Neil, Doctor, are you able to cite for me any
medical .Literature from an epidemiological standpoint,
first of all, that has lead you to believe that cigarettes
can concributa to the development of a mesothelioma?
A.
I can't cite for you the literature right now
but the statistical data which has been .developed to this
KIRBY A. KENMRnv t lecn/'U T P 'c:
c 7 d 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 i 3 17 1G 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
pQint inaicatss
`16Ck of a lot //n dc not.
that
rhj inci dc-nce of utcscthc 1 1 oa;
m -.hose , who ar.o'o than it is
i3-> a | S ' a in thos -
w. .ancc-r?
*s -`6 same z
for th " d -valopmer.t of lunc
- iiOSOlu foly ,
3-
I assume t:)at you would
^
Chrysctila asbestos is c , r , U 0iy capable of causing a ' Peritoneal mesothelioma, is that fair?
it can cauussee Iitt iinn the l?ung, .it can cause lt in tna peritoneum.
5-
Doctor, are you aware or any studies that ,,era
'one in the C l os et, Minnesota, area concerning the
aposres or chrysotile asbestos in the river that a l i n e d he Conwed or Cloquet plant?
. A-
I do no; Know anything about your studies in
ne river at this point.
Q-
And so you ,,are never informed by Union
^Oid'3, t lsdSt he r ._ _
.
fur as you can recall, about Union
`rbide going to the Conwed piant and tasting for
irysotila asbestos in the river, is that right?
'
A
Nor that I know about.
0 . Uo,,, did you know back in 1957 that cigarette
oke and asbestosis had a synergistic effect with
ference to the development of lung cancer?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 -2*
. /
1
Cf lV
*In4i Xi ? -J i '
\S3
uat s corn see.
`l*
w3
not -now that e; that rime.
-
*nci '-j-'j your knowledge concerning che
o/n rgxstic :ffsct between cigarette smoke .m d lung
nrise in the early '70s?
7 BROWN3O N : You nod bee ter rephrase
a t.nut, hike. You naan cigarette smoking and asbestos' *
9
JY MR. POLK:
10 Q.
I an sorry, cigarette smoking and asbestos,
11
did m a t knowledge cone to you in the early t o -s?
12
A.
I would say yes/
13
0.
Finally, with reference to the labeling
14
committee, can you tail me what criteria w.s used by the
13
committee in dealing where asbestos l a b e l m c '
16
A.
nt tne time that the first asbestos lables
17
were applied to the bags.
18
0.
May I interrupt you there? When was that?
19
You don't remember?
'
20 A. I am sure I don't know. It would probably be
21
in tne early '60s when we first started shipping asbestos.
22
Q- . Why do you say it would probably be in the
23
early 60s when you first started shipping?
24
A.
Because that's when I think they probably
(
h
25
started shipping.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
1
w*
^O-S tnat necessarily mean then in the early
)
'oOs Wu3n yea startec shipping you hod the knowledce to put
u'o turning on th e bog?
T
A. h'e put d earning on trie bag.
5
b. 'When you started shipping from the King City
P^ar.t in thu early 'cOs-3
/
A.
To the best of my knowledge that bag would
3
have had soma- sort of a warning. How, I must admit there
i
9
is a possibility -- there is a possibility that the early
10
shipments for tne first year or so may have been made
11
wit.tout a label bur it was not dene without the label
12
committee's knowledge or approval.
1i
Q.
They kind of snuck them cut?
14
/R. JONES: Object to the form of the
15
question.
16
BY ;1R. POLK:
17
Q
I an just kidding. You think it was about a
18
yea.: or so after that that you believed to the best of your
i 9
recollection that a warning label was put on the asbestos
20
bags?
21
A.
To the best of my recollection and my
22
expectation that would have been the case at that time wc-
25
took into consideration what was known about asbestos, what
24
was known about Coalinga asbestos as compared to the long
25
fiber asbestos that was marketed by Johns-Manvi1le and by
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
CaridC ioinn operations and the L-j u j : oonn tthhee j;rt People chut only icr.9 fiber asbestos censed ssb.stc
I s*r 'env
oecaus- or tha; -ne __bel on ti;-: initial Coal in ;a -.`i;,',:n: vas probably a mild label
w.
Saying so.aet.iing like what, don't breaths it'
*`wolvi bra-4thing bust, a si tola sort of s s'.'.ing w . Jk dy. 3
dubsequencly, as we learned .tore about it/ ; y am sure the language became or should have become and 1 0 probably did become more stringent and we now warned that 1 1 breathing oust may cause prolonged serious illness and then
tne statement, "Do not breathe dust." Mo longer "avoid", 13. but "do net".
14
Q.
And based on the knowledge that you had at the
15 various times an the '60s and '70s, at -what t o u t do you
believe that the more serious warning should have bean put
17
on the tag?
19 20 21. 22 23 24 25
A.
i would say in the late '50s and early '70s,
by which tine it was pretty well established that there was
an association between exposure to asbestos and
mesothelioma and lung cancer.
Q.
And you have kind of answered my question.
Jure there any other criteria, other than what you have
mentioned, that was used by the labeling committee?
A.
Weil the kind of damage that was produced was
KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
i
always t-kan into cons id uraz icn.
lS(e
2 . 3. You .-an tne kind of damage that the product
j
ita3 ar could produce wzs dlvays taken into consideration"
-t
. Right.
5
2.
D*d I ask you if you aver recommenced that tha
5 word "cancer" be put on the label?
7 `x' *ou ^skad :na and I told you that we did not
3
aver recommend it, that I can recall.
*
9
0.
Is there any particular reason that in spita
10
of your knowledge concerning that issue that such a
ll
recommendation wasn't made?
12
1R. JOlJOS: Object to the question as
1J
argumentative. Go ahead and answer.
14
A.
My best recollection at the tine is that,
15
number 1 , at that point in tine everybody was still
13
wOncerned about the long fiber chrysotile type of asbestos
17
and we were talking about the short fiber, short small
13
fiber Coalinga type asbestos. And it was our belief at
19
that time, and actually to some degree it is still my
20
belief, that they are not tne same breed of cat, they don't
21
act exactly the same and they don't necessarily produce the
22
adma disease or the^ same types of disease and that with
23
that uncertainty in there there was also a question o
24
whether we should go so far as to say causes cancer.
25
Q.
Was that uncertainty ever resolved
i
i.ini wi v uiy an your own n ind befo r: 1973?
2 - believe it ,ia3 bo 5n a J _ 'j . 1 , !_/ .
j
resi^neu totally ic this point in tine.
4
0-
5
flour is?
you have any ibsa what G_r.aui :.n
151
6
A.
No, I Jon 1 1 .
7
w.
Do you understand that the Galilria or
a
wOaimc,a nbv.r was likened from day one to Canadian Grade 7
s
fiber?
`
.
10
No.
11
12
guest ion.
H-k. JONESi Object to >:h form of the
13
A. Don't knew anything about that.
14
Q. And uia you ever do anykind cf work to
i 5
determine tna carcinogenicity of Cadnadian Grade 7?
15
A no .
17
Q.
eo you wouldn't know, as you sit here today,
13
one way or unotaer as to whether or not Canadian Grade 7
19
chrysotile causes uesothelioma, is that right?
.
20
A. That's correct.
21
Q.
Have you ever bean a diagnostic medical doctor0
22
A.
I wouldn't say so, no.
23
Q.
Have you ever treated a patient?
24
A.
Yes.
,
2 5
Q.
Do you know how mesothelioma works in the body?
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f** \ r\ 1 <T * <i . /A*.
i.r. other words, cnce you nave a tumor do you knew vhat hut ]5-ff
2
tumor does tc cause deith generally'5
j
A.
Wall to the brst of my racollact ion,
4 me =;otrialiona --
5
'J. Doctor, 1 am just asking you if you know. I
1
6 con't need an explanation.
:
7
A. 1 really haven't studied it to the point w h o m
:
a Icould tall you hew mesothelioma causes death.
<
;
j
9
Q.Do you have an opinion, and
you may not,
j
li 1 U whether or not mesothelioma or death by mesothelioma is
11
more painful or less painful tnan death by asbestosisv
i
12
A.
I have no way of knowing that.
i
1 a
MR. PDLK: That's all I have fornow,
|
14 but againI wantto retain my right to continue the
j
j
15
deposition. Iam ending my questions nowbecause it's 4:30
:
16 and we have to get bac!: to Minnesota.
|
17
Id
'
R E C R O S 3 - E:C A M I M AT IO N
19
3Y MR. BROWWSOLJ:
'
20
Q. Let me ask you a question, Doctor. Maybe Mik;
21
^sked it, but I don't think so. Are you aware that some
22
individuals are more susceptible to mesothelioma than
23
others?
4. 4
HR, JONES: Object to the question as
repetitive. Go ahead.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES. .
1
A. 1 don'c knew now you determine that,
15 S
2
d.
.>ira you -.Ware thin in practice
h'.s turn.;.,
j
cue : bo the -030?
4
A.
I don't know he..' anybody could :;ovj chat
5
there is .jieatsr susceptibility to nasofchbiiona.
5
I.
.U'-j you aware thou Cases of mesothelioma have
7
bse.i diagnosed upon extremely low exposure histories to
o i$jCaCOS ?
t
9
:i.
I aa W3.ru of the fact that there are cases of
10
mesothelioma which are not related to asbestos, so it is
11
entirely possioie that you could have somebody with a very
12
low exposure to asbestos who had a mesothelioma.
1J
'3.
Are you also aware that people have been
14
diagnosed of having mesothelioma that had very low exposure
15
to asbestos?
'
10
A.
I suppose that's possible.
17
MR. 3ROW17CON: That's all I have.
13
Thanks.
19
i!R. G0LD3ERG: I nave a question.
20
MR. HARVARD: Can we take a break right
21
now just to give the Doctor a break?
.
22
MR. GOLD3ERG: I just have one question
23
though. Can I just ask one question?
24
.
MR. POLK: I want to be clear here on
25
the record that we are going to have direct examination now.
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ( c m Q > occ .
1 -1a . Unless you '-/ant to say r'.ie
r
aeposition o~.n'r be us 2d at trial.
PJLK: 1 didn't end ay quest ions :o: tna purpose of missing my airplane. I aa not done --.03 s--=xam _n ing tne gentleman.
record.
lR. JG.C3: You made that cliar on th'
MR. POLK: Are you not planning on
9
bringing this witness to the trial, is that the idea,
10
because I have no notice that you intended on taking his
I
11
testimonial deposition. Tnis was noticed for discovery
I
12
purposes.
1 j
vlR. J0NS5: I think there are some
14
things in discovery that need to be clarified based on some
15
of the testimony that's been given today.
16
MR. POLK: Than I think you ought to
i7
note the gentleman's testimonial deposition. You
id discovered my client for six hours before I took any direct II
19
and 1 want to have the same opportunity.
i|
20
MR. LAURA: In every deposition,
21
discovery or otherwise, you have the right to direct
22
examination, so I don't think that's a problem. I mean, if
23
you have a problem with that, tell me what it is but I
24
don't think that we should not have the right to do that.
f
)
25
MR. POLK: I don't know what the intent
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
tcin \ o*>w..,ofec V C%**i*i*
`1 i-- *o
ywu; l\\zj:i:
the ii^k/03i'.on at tr ia i^
you mt-srviing o* *f chut1 s v, - . ,,
lnt"n: ls' y-53' : l-Vd - ^'^1 - loz cf problems with ;hat
"nU
not in uccor:a:ijs with the Minnesota Rui.-s.
oOiNtJ: The Minnesota Rules M o n 't o ...-w.e any uiscinction between depositions for discovery
7
purposes ana testimonial purposes.
o
9
10
question?
11
`A* POLX: Sure it does.
.
M-1. HARVARD: Why don't we get your one
12 i3 '8 Y MR. GOLDSJRG:
CRD3 S-ZXAMI MAT IOil
14 Q. One question in two parts. Doctor, r.y name is
15
Joe wOxab-ery. With regard to your opinion that chrysoti1 a
1
cisoestos can cause mesothelioma, hive you had an
1 / opportunity to review any literature or hear any testimonv
18
to tna contrary from any expert?
19 A. I can only recall seeing,' and I can't tail vcu
20
wnero I did read it, evidence to the effect that the
21
m ci ae nce of mesothelioma among a group where it was
22
expected to be high, was found to be very low. It
23
suggested tnat there may or may net be a relationship
24
between chrysotile asbestos and mesothelioma.
25
Q.
And now the second part of my question. Would
~
'
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . ~
1
2
4
6 7 3 3 10
11
12 13 14 15 lo 17 13 19 20 21 22 23
24
25
1 c to tair tc say chin chat i' s not that you have
/ 0 >2 _
--onilcirsd and ^ j o c t a d cvida.nc;- to -.he oon.tr,iry but rttha:
tnat you l-.uvi ;ust net fc.un -uxpooud to it.
"lUc ln
of nis last answer.
in going to object to
i'lR. jOLDSZRC
iH. POLK: I will join in that.
.
Do you understand the question, Doctor^ Let
me rephrase the question. Was it'that you rejected the
voracity of the one item you were talking about or simply
tnat it was not a substantial enough body of evidence to
causa you to reconsider your opinion; in other words, did you think it was wrong or not enough?
A.
To reconsider what opinions?
That chr/socile can cause mesotnelioma.
. A.
I tnink that the preponderance of evidence at
the present time suggestions that under certain
-ircumstances chrysotile asbestos can cause mesothelioma, and tne circumstances generally are those of rather large exposure, massive exposure.
Q-
I understand you have testified to that.
A. _41oi^-T_thdnk it is also entirely possible that -he relationship between exposure to chrysotile asbestos m d mesothelioma is and has been exaggerated.
Q.
Doctor, my question to you isn't quite on that
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
t .
(612) 922-195S > L-t..^
103 i.
poinc. .'<{ question is evidence to the contrary, v id -n r
2 that ..sbestou coesn1 ^ '-';-Uj S .laso t n: r iom a nas seen is sc k ^
3 to you. .Iy question was aid you think that evidence was
4
wrong or ur.trucnfui
s i m p l y in iu aqua to in its scooc to
5
cnaacu your opinion?
u
inadequate in its scope.
7 GG_iD3Zh<0: I have no other questions.
3 .Ir.. HARVARD: Can wo take a break right
9
now for about five minutes and let us talk.
10
(At this time a brief recess './as taken. )
X
MR. POLK: Doctor, we were just outside
12
talking and your lawyers would like to take some testimony
13
iron you. I am sure you are tired and would like to go
14
home and we would like to go tone. Do you have any problem,
15
ii the weather was somewhat decent up in .Minnesota, of
1 o
appearing in Minnesota at some future date for the purposes
17
of completing this testimony? Do you have any problem with
13
that? '
19
iHE WITNESS: Well, the main problem is
20
1 don t like ^o travel any more. For one thing, this
21
business of hypoglycemia; the other is I am getting
22
cataracts and,,.,you noticed I had a little bit of trouble
23
trying to see when I was reading. And if I do travel my
24
wife aas to go with me to keep an eye on me.
25
MR. POLK: How would you feel about it
KIRBY A. KENNEDY i ASSOCIATES
2 j 4 j o 7 3 9 10
11
12 13 14 i 5 lo 17 13 19 20 21 22 2 j 24 25
i f M w-j Drought or someone brought you you anu your wife uo to
i'linr. JSOtu \Z SO.Ik3 r:
.
IUCUr' dare for tha purpose of roopietmc
your testimonyj and o'u-It. yyoouu tuip i,nn ,.i n,,i,ce .note!, i.n
-iinnoapolis?
ilRt HARVARDj At their expense.
'fH WITNESS: It would have to be eft --
--na 1 st of rfay because
see having a meeting of the son*
of tha American evol u t i o n down here the last of April and
` " the 38n'i*al chairmen of the whole damn meeting. i f s e state meeting. I am going to be wrapped up in that from h -re on out until that is over.
*1R * PCLK: The lawyers for Union Carbide oalJ like to take some testimony from you. Tha case that
"
hor* on or one ot -*. that we are here for is
-he hanisto case which is scheduled for trial March 20
toming rignt up. I certainly don't want to do anything to
>re:udice Union Carbide to take your testimony, but on tha >ther hand we would like to close it up and that's why we u-e asking you about your availability and willingness to :ome up. i think you have answered the question.
THE WITNESS: My problem is the
esponsorbilit-irrs I-- a-going to have in this area up until he end Oi April because from here on in it really gets
hort and have to work like mad to get everything sot up. HR. POLK: Would those responsibilities
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES , n '" aT>_ir*CC y
; W`*.I
-ISO entail the ' --"le P -- lc,u Up to
cr sov
2C, the n-jt ./.-ok I O S '
rn
4
Aca.,
Night up unti:
2 9 th c
toiiofraj or --
-R J ^.*aL> That starts iramaaiutaiy
Cl'ISSS: it started a few weeks ago
and atiuuli/ just this day loss is sort of a problem to me
9
so, 1 mean, that's --
10 21R. JONHS: As I see it we have three
Utcrnativjs, one ws can stay and continue it tomorrow; two,
i i. WS Cin COi;U; bac* ; - three, we can stipulate that it won't
t
13
be used until it's c o m p l y ec. You have ind ic at e that you
14
ire not willing to do the third, if I understand you
13
correctly.
`
i u
:.R. POLK: That's correct.
17 AR. GOLDBERG: Isn't there some lace
18
piano out of here so you can switch airlines and get to
18
Minneapolis at midnight or something? You need another
2U
nour and a half. You need to be walking out of here at
21
7:00 or 7:30.
22 -MR--- POLK: Nhy don't we reschedule
23
sometime prior to trial and come back?
i .24
MR. JONES: As opposed to staying
25
overnight. Doctor, what's your _
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES
/ U 1 '-43 iiT'JESS: v>7c>1 1 , it would be ;rt-;r 2 for as ii wa did that. :f i have to go up there I havo to
a d"y to ,JP thi`s' *nd a day being in session, and
4
a -ay to get back. That's three days out of cy erea of
5 responsibiii ty . Down here, if you only have half a day
6
l=fc on .-ia, wny it's a naif a day loss. If you have a
7 w.iole uay, it's a whole cay loss.
3 MR. POLK: I have a suggestion. 'The new
9 .ules of Minnesota Civil Procedure call for a telephonic
10
deposition, which we did just very recently. Do. you have
11
any problem with that? I will stipulate to the taking of
12
tne doctor's telephonic .deposition at a tine mutually
1J
convenient: for all parties.
14
MR. BROl/itfSCU: So will I.
15 HR. POLK: Commencing with your direct
lo
examination' and reserving any right to further cross. Hew
17
is that?
lb
MR. LAURA: Sounds good to me.
19
MR. POLK:- Doctor, would that be
20
satisractory with you? It's a matter of just talking into
21
tne telephone.
22
-- --- --- MR-.-HARVARD: One of us could be her a to
23
show him those documents and you all can just take the risk
24
over the phono that we are living up to our obligation
25
regarding the practice of law that we have shown him the
' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . '
~
-- - * ' *t ` `
1
`-ocuaenc na net .'.and:-,
-;1;a scrip: :o rcic che ."iv'.'i"
2
unjwor.
/0 /
j
!
4
5 ^
`a k e *
;IR* PJLK: *`^-'3 fin: by r,.'i,
.
u'
I ar; just kiudinc; :bout
1 / 1 1 1 h a V 3 soacbouy here to aast with th:
Doctor and be present with 4 in i*
,,. .
`ln
"he tslsphoas deposition
7
oced.o, unc I ^ s u e c t h o f s not * problem for ?.nyboiv
3 (At this tin: a discussion was held off
3 the record.) .
10 ilil. -OLK. *t is then agreed on behalf
. 1 of the Plaintiff, that procedure. '
1 T MR. JOiEi: Fine on behalf of Union
13
Carbide.
14 13. i.-.IlVAP.D: Just so the record is
13 d e a r , i want to make sure that Union Carbide is t iking the
1 b position that this - that wo obj e c t to any attempt to ttv,
17
^his deposition in any Court frr -nu
. ,
1
u *-cr any purpose allowed by inw
13
U S t U `JCh t i m *' th* *Po.itiOB has been complete and th
19 examination which we intend to conduct in the deposition
20 has in fact been accomplished because at this point the
21 deposition is incomplete, he believe there are matters
22 w m c h can ba_mappjrupr.iat.jiy interpreted and we want the
23 opportunity to conduct our examination prior to this
24
deposition being concluded.
( 25
MR. POLK: You are not asking for my a
KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 1 IftRC
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