Document 4vw7D84DMk60deDjOQGow7zDR

IN THE MATTER OF: Transwestern Pipeline Company vs. Monsanto Company, et aL Cause No. BC 026959 ........... Deposition of M.C. Throdahl October 2, 1992 Gore Reporting Company, Inc. 100 North Broadway, Suite 1175 Saint Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042506 2 1 SUPERIOR COURT 2 FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 3 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 4 5 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE 6 COMPANY, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 1 0 vs. NO. BC 026959 11 1 2 MONSANTO COMPANY AND 1 3 DOES 1 THROUGH 200 1 4 INCLUSIVE , 15 1 6 Defendants. 17 1 8 Deposition of M.C. THRODAHL, taken 1 9 on behalf of the Plaintiff, at the offices 2 0 of Bryan Cave, One Metropolitan Square, in 2 1 the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, 2 2 on the 2nd day of October, 1992 before 2 3 Ronald A. Gore, Registered Professional 2 4 Reporter and Notary Public. . 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON00425' _______________________ .________________________________________________________________3 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Ms. Dana K. Welch 5 Shearman & Sterling 6 555 California Street 7 San Francisco, California 94104 8 9 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTO 1 0 COMPANY: 1 1 Mr. Charles F. Preuss 1 2 Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 1 3 505 Montgomery Street 1 4 San Francisco, California 94111 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON00425C 4 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 Examination by Ms. Welch 7 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 8 Deposition Exhibit 703 45 9 8-30-57 Memo to P.G. Benignus from 1 0 L.V. Sherwood, Tran 053674-053675 11 1 2 Deposition Exhibit 704 50 1 3 Minutes, Meeting of the Corporate 1 4 Development Committee, 4-22-68 1 5 ADM 00604- ADM 006046 16 1 7 Deposition Exhibit 705 57 1 8 3-6-69 Memo from T.C. Ford, Tran 1 9 059440 2 0 Deposition Exhibit 706 65 2 1 3-3-69 letter to R.T. Innis from 2 2 E.P. Wheeler, T 091767- T 091769 2 3 Deposition Exhibit 70 7- 70 2 4 3-7-69 Memo to Dr. Kelly from Mr.. 2 5 Wheeler, T 091770- T 091771 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042509 i ______________________________________________________________________________ 5 1 Deposition Exhibit 708 73 2 Quarterly Report from the Medical 3 Dept. (July,August, Sept., 1969) to Mr. 4 Bock from Emmet Kelly, Tran 024242- 024247 5 Deposition Exhibit 709 86 6 Minutes of Meeting of the 7 Corporate Development Committee, 11-17-69 8 Tran 023298, 023300 and 023301 9 Deposition Exhibit 710 90 1 0 PCB Presentation to Corporate 1 1 Development Committee, 11-17-69, 1 2 Tran 024713- 024737 1 3 Deposition Exhibit 711 111 1 4 Minutes of Meeting of the 1 5 Corporate Management Committee, 4-20-70 1 6 BIR 002086-BIR 002087 1 7 Deposition Exhibit 712 120 1 8 Outline-CMC Presentation, PCB 1 9 . environmental problem, 0001529 2 0 0001538 2 1 Deposition Exhibit 713 126 2 2 Minutes, Corporate Management 2.3 Committee, 5-11-70, 61002 2 4 Deposition Exhibit 714 133 2 5 5-11-70 Memo from H.S. Bergen to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042510 6 1 W.B. Papageorge, Tran 085305- 085306 2 Deposition Exhibit 715 135 3 Copies of charts used in 4 presentation to CMC, from J. Mason to 5 Bergen and Springgate, 300 0540- 300 0563 6 Deposition Exhibit 716 142 7 Minutes, Meeting of Corporate 8 Management Committee, 9-14-70, 9 Tran 039152- 039154 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 J Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042511 7 1 M.C. THRODAHL, 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn 3 to testify the truth, the whole truth, and 4 nothing but the truth in the case 5 aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to 6 oral interrogatories propounded as follows, 7 to- wit : 8 EXAMINATION 9 QUESTIONS BY MS. WELCH: 1 0 Q: Good morning, Mr. Throdahl. My 1 1 name is Dana Welch, and I represent 1 2 Transwestern Pipeline Company. Please tell 1 3 me if I need to raise my voice. I tend to 1 4 speak a little softly, so please tell me if 1 5 you can't hear me. ' 1 6 A: I'll turn it up. 1 7 (Discussion off the record) . 1 8 MS. WELCH: Mr. Throdahl, have you 1 9 ever been deposed before? 2 0 A: Yes. 2 1 Q : In what case? 2 2 A: Several. 2 3 Q: Were any of the cases related to 2 4 PCB s ? `. 2 5 A: I don't -- certainly not in a Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMONOQ42512 8 1 deliberate fashion. PCBs may or may not 2 have been a part of the questioning, but 3 they were not substantive to me. 4 Q: Do you recall how long you were 5 deposed? 6 A: Less than eight years ago, but 7 farther away than perhaps three or four 8 That's as close as I can come. 9 Q: Do you recall how many times 1 0 you've been deposed? 1 1 A: I would guess four. 1 2 Q: Did all depositions have to do 1 3 with your work at Monsanto? 1 4 A: Yes. 1 5 Q: And you have no specific 1 6 recollection of the substance of the 1 7 testimony or the questioning? 1 8 A: You mean o.n each of them? 1 9 Q : Yes. 2 0 A : No. 2 1 Q: Before we begin the deposition, 2 2 I'd like to explain certain ground rules 2 3 that will help the deposition move along 2 4 and help the transcript. The first is 2 5 that, of course, you understand that you're Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042513 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 9 1 under oath, and even though this is an 2 informal setting, that means that you're 3 obligated to tell the truth just as if you 4 were in a courtroom of law. Do you 5 understand that? 6 A: I understand. 7 Q: And it's extremely important, to 8 help the court reporter and to make the 9 transcript clear, that all of your answers 1 0 to me are oral, so that the court reporter 1 1 can record that. Do you understand that? 1 2 A: I understand. 1 3 Q: And, similarly, it's important 1 4 that you allow me to finish my question and 1 5 I will allow you to finish your answer 1 6 before we move along. It's very difficult 1 7 to take two people speaking at once. And 1 8 if at any point I ask a question that you 1 9 don't understand, or that you view 2 0 confusing, please ask me to rephrase it, 2 1 and I will attempt to rephrase it. If you 2 2 do answer a question that I ask, I will 2 3 assume that you understood the content of 2 4 the question and the transcript will 25 reflect that. When the transcript is . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis,. Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042514 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 1_0 1 completed your attorney will forward a copy 2 of that to you and you'll have the 3 opportunity to make corrections before you 4 sign the transcript. But I should inform 5 you that at the time of trial a 6 Transwestern attorney, whether it be me or 7 somebody else, may make comments upon those 8 changes. . 9 A: I understand. 1 0 Q: Mr. Throdahl, are you currently 1 1 emp1oyed ? 1 2 A : No . 1 3 Q: Are you retired? 1 4 A : Yes. 1 5 Q: When did you retire? 1 6 A: March 31, 1984. 1 7 Q: Did you retire from Monsanto 1 8 Company? 1 9 A : Right. 2 0 Q: Have you consulted for Monsanto 2 1 Company since your retirement? 2 2 A : No. 2 3 Q: Could you tell me what your 2 4 educational background is? 2 5 A: Yes. I graduated inchemical Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042515 I ______________________________________________________________________________________ 1_1 1 engineering from Ohio State University in 2 1941. I was involved with an industrial 3 research institute program of advanced 4 management studies at Harvard Business 5 School somewhere in the late ' 50 ' s . I 6 don't recall that now. But it was not 7 involving a degree. 8 Q: And when did you come to work for 9 Monsanto Company? 1 0 A: I first began in the summer of 1 1 1 9 4 0 as a summer student, and I became a 1 2 permanent employee the following June of 1 3 19 4 1. 1 4 Q: Could you relate to me briefly 1 5 your work history at Monsanto in terms of 1 6 what job positions you held? 1 7 A: Well, the first assignment 1 8 involved being part of a -- we called it an 1 9 analytical department at that time, that 2 0 would be quality assurance today. I spent 2 1 about a year in that capacity. And then I 2 2 was moved into the research department at 2 3 the location which was at that time in 2 4 Nitro , N-i-t-.r-o, West Virginia. I was in 2 5 chemical research until somewhere around Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042516 12 1 1 9 4 5. Then I became a group leader, and 2 then I became an assistant research 3 director at that location. And then I 4 moved, somewhere in the early ' 5 0 ' s - 5 probably '51 or '52, I moved to a newly 6 created position of commercial development, 7 as manager of commercial development, 8 again, headquartered at that location. 9 This all had to do with the products that 1 0 were manufactured at that site. 1 1 Q: At Nitro? 1 2 A : Yes. 1 3 Q: What products were manufactured at 1 4 Nitro? 1 5 A: At that time they were mostly 1 6 chemicals useful for the processing of 1 7 rubber and a certain number of detergent 1 8 chemicals. 1 9 ,Q: Did Nitro manufacture any 2 0 chemicals containing PCBs or PCB-contain i ng 2 1 products? 2 2 A: No. Then in 1 9 5 4 I was 2 3 transferred to St. Louis, and I became then 2 4 the assistant director of the development 2 5 department. Commercial development, that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042517 ____________________________________________________________________________________ 1 3 1 is. And then I became director of that 2 department in 1956. 3 (Discussion off the record) . 4 A: I moved to become director of 5 research. At this point in St. Louis I was 6 a part of the organic chemicals division. 7 That division no longer exists as such, 8 it's part of the chemical company now. And 9 I was director of research until probably 1 0 '62 or so, and I became director of 1 1 marketing at the organic chemicals 1 2 division. So I moved from research to 1 3 commercial development back into research 1 4 and then to marketing. Let's see, that 1 5 takes me up to '62, '64. I was then made 1 6 general manager of the international 1 7 division that year. And then I became 1 8 vice-president for technology in '67. And 1 9 I was in that role as a member of the 2 0 board. And my responsibilities were the 2 1 research and technology of the 2 2 corporation. And I stayed in that role 2 3 until '77, when I organized a corporate 2 4 effort in environmental matters, we called 2 5 it environmental policy. And I stayed in Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042518 I _______________________________________________________________________________________1_4 1 that position, with different rank titles, 2 until I retired in '.8 4. 3 Q: Turning to your job from 1 9 5 4 to 4 1962 in research, did you have any contact 5 with Aroclors during that period of time? 6 A: Well, that process research and 7 process engineering, and so on, that were 8 done on all of the current products of that 9 division were a part of that overall 1 0 responsibility. The Aroclors were split, 1 1 as I recall it, between the organic 1 2 division and another division which later 1 3 became inorganic by name, because the PCBs 1 4 were not made within the organic division 1 5 plants. So, all I can say is that we used 1 6 Aroclors for blends and mixtures and so on 1 7 in the field of vinyl plasticizers, and 1 8 that was a part of the organic research 1 9 activity. But you have to understand that 2 0 a lot of these chemicals were made and used 2 1 in all kinds of different forms and 2 2 applications, so that my memory just tells 2 3 me that, yes, I would have been involved in 2 4 understanding about the mixtures of 2 5 Aroclors with respect to heat transfer Gore Reporting Co,, Inc. St. Louis,, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042519 I _______________________________________________________________________________ 15 1 fluids and dielectrics. And we were also 2 in the functional fluids business of 3 fire-resistant fluids for a number of 4 purposes . 5 Q : What were your specific job 6 responsibilities in that position from 1954 7 to '62? 8 A: Well, from '54 to '56 it was 9 director of development for the division. 1 0 And from '56 to somewhere around '60, '61, 1 1 it was director of research. So, I had 1 2 several hundred people involved. 1 3 Q: So, you were in a management 1 4 position during that period of time? 15 A : Yes . 1 6 Q: And you were - 1 7 A: From the time I was an assistant 1 8 director of development I was in management 1 9 through the rest of my career. 2 0 Q: So, you were responsible for 2 1 supervising people who actually developed 2 2 the Aroclors? 2 3 A: Yes. And other things. 2 4 Q: And other chemicals as well. 2 5 Approximately what percentage of your time Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042520 i ______________________________________________________________________________________ 1_6 1 during that period of time, and that's '54 2 to '56, was involved with managing Aroclor 3 related products? 4 A: I can't recall. It would be 5 small . 6 Q: Less than 20 percent? 7 A : Oh, yes. 8 Q: How about when you became director 9 of development in '56? Was it director of 1 0 development that you became in '56? 1 1 A : Yes. 1 2 MR. PREUSS: Didn't you say 1 3 director of research? 1 4 A: No. I became -- forgive me. 1 5 You're right. From '56 to '60 I was in 1 6 commercial development. Forgive me. When I 1 7 came to St. Louis. I have to measure these 1 8 times by when I moved. And I moved here in 1 9 '54., so I came as an assistant director - 2 0 the assistant director, and then two years 2 1 later I moved into the director's role, and 2 2 I stayed there about four years. Without 2 3 refreshing myself, that's as good as my 2 4 memory tells me. 25 MS . WELCH That in or Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042521 17 1 commercial development? 2 A: No, from '56 to about '60 was 3 commercial development. And I was the 4 director of that department. There were 5 many different product groups that were in 6 that department at that time. 7 Q: And approximately what percentage 8 of your time was spent on product groups 9 that related to the Aroclors? 1 0 A s Again, that would be rather 1 1 small. I have no idea at this point t o 1 2 give you a more accurate definition 1 3 Q : Once again, would it be less than 1 4 2 0 percent? 1 5 A : Oh, yes. 1 6 Q : Now, you testified that from ' 6 2 1 7 t o ' 6 3 or '64 you worked in marketing? 1 8 A : Right. 1 9 Q : As a director of marketing? 2 0 A : Yes. 2 1 Q : For the organic division? 2 2 A : Yes. 2 3 Q : What percentage of time was spent 2 4 on Aroclor products at that point?. 2 5 A: Probably about the same. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042522 \rx 1_8______________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 Qs Less than 20 percent? 2 A : Yes. 3 Q: And then you became general 4 manager of the international division after 5 that? 6 A: Yes. It was either late '63 or 7 early '64, I can't remember. 8 Q: What percentage of your time, if 9 any, was spent on Aroclor products at that 1 0 point? Again, very small? 1 1 A: Very small. 1 2 Q: When did you join the board? 1 3 A: In November of '66. 1 4 Qs Were you ever on any management 1 5 committees of the board? 1 6 A : Yes. 1 7 Q: What management committees were 1 8 those? . 1 9 A: Well, there was an executive 2 0 management committee that had different 2 1 names over different times, but it was 2 2 essentially the same group. Now, you asked 2 3 committees of the board? 2 4 Q : Yes. 25 A: Okay. That was it. i Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042523 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 1_9 1 Q: How about the corporate management 2 committee, was that a committee of the ' 3 board? 4 A: Yes. That's what I say, this 5 group had different names from time to 6 time. That's all I can tell you. They 7 weren't significant. It was the same group 8 of people, but they had different names. 9 Q: So, if some documents that I've 1 0 looked at say corporate development 1 1 committee, that would be the same 1 2 committee? 1 3 A : Yes. 1 4 Q; Corporate management committee is 1 5 the same committee? 1 6 A: Yes. Or there was also one title, 1 7 again, I do not remember the precise times 1 8 here, but the executive management 1 9 committee was another name. 2 0 Q: When did you become a member of 2 1 that -- we'll call it the management 2 2 committee, would that be suitable? 2 3 A: As soon as I was elected to the 2 4 board. At the same time, rather. . 2 5 Q: What was the function of the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042524 St ______________________________________________________________________________________ 2_0 1 management committee in its different - 2 whatever its title was? 3 A: Well, it served the corporation on 4 day-to-day affairs when the board -- when 5 the full board, you might say, was not in 6 session. Now, the full board, even when it 7 met, was not an operational board, it was a 8 governance board, and so the president of 9 the corporation had literally a senior 1 0 group of people that he relied on to give 1 1 him advice and counsel. And in some cases, 1 2 such as my own, we had areas of 1 3 responsibility that were of an operational 1 4 nature. Mine was technology. 1 5 Q: When you say that yours was 1 6 technology, what did that include during 1 7 the period when you first joined the 1 8 board? Let's take the period when you 1 9 first joined the board in '66 until '68, 2 0 what did that include? 2 1 A: Well, it included the research, 2 2 that's the bench research that we're 2 3 speaking of now, that was carried on at the 2 4 central laboratories, which were corporate 2 5 in their function. It included supervision i Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042525 21 1 of the divisional research, which there was 2 probably four or five divisions at that 3 time. These were operated more or less 4 independently, but I had oversight 5 responsibility for the function of 6 research. And then that would include, 7 also, the process development that went 8 on. Process development simply means that 9 any given process that was manufacturing a 1 0 product was under surveillance of varying 1 1 degrees at all times for improved cost 1 2 control, improved quality assurance, and so 1 3 on and so on. So, again, my role was one 1 4 of overall supervision. And I was also 1 5 responsible as V.P. for technology for 1 6 helping to cite the forward thrust of our .1 7 technical programs. In fact, the people 1 8 like myself spent more time worrying about 1 9 those issues than we did, you know, the 2 0 day-to-day supervisory activities. They 2 1 all had to blend, but there was a lot of 2 2 research money spent on improving the 2 3 existing products, and then there was 2 4 research money spent on searching for new 2 5 products and new uses and new markets that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . HARTOLDMON00425: i ____________________________________________ ;_________________________________________ 2_2 1 we would try to go into. And all of that 2 had to be blended in.. And it varied from 3 time to time, and it varied over the 4 intensity with respect to which products 5 and which directions we thought were most 6 appropriate. I was also responsible for 7 the corporate budget that would be assigned 8 to the technology function. Now, there 9 were general managers of operating 1 0 divisions that had specific 1 1 responsibilities for any of that technology 1 2 that went along in their division. But 1 3 divisions were management devices, and you 1 4 understand that, I'm sure, and general 1 5 managers were given a set of assets, 1 6 plants, products, and so on, and they were 1 7 to optimize the management of the 1 8 investment. And that would change from time 1 9 to time depending on the various needs as 2 0 the president thought best. 2 1 Q: So, was your responsibility to 2 2 make strategic d-dHv-i-s-r'cfn decisions about 2 3 directions that products would go in and 2 4 then allocate budgets accordingly?. 2 5 A: It was my responsibility to give Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042527 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 2_3 1 the technology inputs to the entire set of 2 considerations, of which marketing would be 3 one and manufacturing would be one, as well 4 as technology. 5 Q: Now, were there various 6 representatives on the management committee 7 from the various areas, for instance, 8 marketing or -9 A : Yes. 1 0 Q : And in the time period '66 to '68, 1 1 do you remember who was on the management 1 2 c ommi11 e e ? 1 3 As Well, let's see, Mr. Bock was the 1 4 president, Mr. Sommer was chairman, Mr. 1 5 John Gillis was a vice-president for 1 6 marketing. The general counsel would have 1 7 been a part of that. 1 8 Q : Is that Mr.. Putzell? 1 9 A : At that time, yes. Mr. Eck, I 2 0 think, was one. Mr. Bible. Eck is E-c-k. 2 1 Q ; Did they represent any particular 2 2 aspect of the corporation? 2 3 A: My memory tells me that Mr. Eck 2 4 and Mr. Bible had more to do with 2 5 manufacturing and the like. But without Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042528 i ______________________________________________________________________________________ 24 1 refreshing myself I'd have to leave it 2 there. 3 Q: How often did the management 4 committee meet? 5 A: Usually every week. It was 6 usually on a Monday, I believe. 7 Q: How were decisions made? Were 8 they by a vote, or consensus, or - 9 A: Well, there was a secretary to 1 0 this committee who served in a staff role 1 1 to the president, and this secretary kept 1 2 the agenda and so on. At each meeting - 1 3 prior to each meeting we knew what the 1 4 agenda was, and we knew if we had 1 5 assignments to fulfill. But all of us as 1 6 members, you might say, made our 1 7 contributions either ahead of time or were 1 8 prepared to voice our judgments at those 1 9 meetings. The president held spirited 2 0 discussions on the issues as we saw them. 2 1 And the way we had always worked in the 2 2 company, you made your best recommendation 2 3 and you argued your points, and the 24 president was the boss and he made the . 2 5 decision upon advice. Sometimes the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042529 _________________________________________________________________________________ 2 5 1 advice, you know, was spirited, I guess 2 you'd put it that way, because in many 3 instances subjects that got to that 4 committee just didn't have single answers 5 at times. 6 Q: Sometimes it called for a judgment 7 call? 8 A: Sure. Most of the time. 9 Q: Did various groups within the 1 0 corporation come to make presentations? 1 1 A : Yes. 1 2 Q: For instance, a business group 1 3 might come to make a presentation on an 1 4 issue? 1 5 A: They did. 1 6 Q: Would they generally submit 1 7 written submissions to members of the 1 8 management committee prior to that? 1 9 A: Usually. 2 0 Q: Did you make it a practice to try 2 1 to attend every meeting? 2 2 A: That was a requirement, unless you 2.3 had to tr ave1 for some other reason. 2 4 Q: And if you didn't attend a 2 5 meeting, did you review the agenda Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042530 i ______________________________________________________________________________________ 2 6 1 beforehand? 2 A: Usually. 3 Q: Didyou alwaysreview or try to 4 review the minutes of a meeting after the 5 meeting? 6 A : Yes. 7 Q: Even if youdidn'tattend the 8 meeting? 9 A : Yes. 1 0 Q: Let me see if you agree with me if 1 1 I try to describe.the management committee 1 2 as its function was to look out for the 1 3 overall interests of the corporation as 1 4 opposed to any particular business group ; 1 5 would you agree with that characterization? 1 6 A: Yes. 1 7 Q: So, it would try and balance the 1 8 interests of the corporation against a 1 9 particular business group and come to a 2 0 conclusion on the direction that was best 2 1 for the whole corporation, would you agree 2 2 with that? 2 3 A: Certainly in part that would be 2 4 their responsibility. 2 5 Q: What kinds of decisions were Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042531 I ______________________________________________________________________________________ 2_7 1 decisions that were left to the business 2 groups as opposed to that would come to the 3 management committee? Could you give me 4 examp 1e s ? 5 A: What kinds of decisions? We 6 operated on a budget system that, a priori, 7 would be established, and the budget system 8 was one of the guiding influences, and so a 9 general manager -- and they were called 1 0 general managers at that time, and 1 1 sometimes in later years they had titles of 1 2 managing directors, and you may have seen 1 3 those references. They were essentially in 1 4 the same function. But each general 1 5 manager, in effect, was a kind of a 1 6 president of his assets that he was called 1 7 upon to manage. So, he had considerable 1 8 authority as to how he did it, did the 1 9 managing. He had clear authority on how 2 0 much capital money he could spend on his 2 1 own volition. He knew what the limits were 2 2 that he had to ask for either presidential 2 3 approval or board approval. And those were 2 4 just almost automatic. So, he had -the 2 5 responsibility, then, of maximizing the Gore. Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042532 28 1 earnings on those assets. He also had the 2 responsibility to seek new markets for his 3 products, seek new products for markets 4 that we were not in, but were in the realm 5 of the thrust and direction. This was 6 guided by, usually, a corporate long range 7 plan. So, the collegial aspect, if that's 8 what -- if that's what's concerning you, 9 the collegial aspect was, I think, high, 1 0 but there was no mistake, each person knew 1 1 his authority limits. And so from that 1 2 point of view the general managers were 1 3 interested in who were members of the 1 4 management committee, certainly they would 1 5 consult with me on technology matters. And 1 6 if I did not agree with them on technology 1 7 matters, as someone in manufacturing and 1 8 someone in marketing might not agree, this 1 9 is where a lot of discussions went on 2 0 outside the corporate management 2 1 committee. And that's a very normal kind 2 2 of thing, because you couldn't bring all of 2 3 this stuff to a meeting and suddenly then 2 4 have a full session about it. It was 2 5 really a session for review, re-review and Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042533 29 1 then recommendations and decision. 2 Q : So you had to keep acquainted with 3 the day-to-day problems before it came to 4 the meeting? 5 A: Depending -- you said the word 6 a c qu aintance? 7 Q: You had to keep acquainted? 8 A: Yes. "Acquainted" had variations 9 of meaning, though. You might be far more 1 0 involved in one set of problems at one time 1 1 of the year in a given business than you 1 2 would be in another time, as you might 1 3 gather. But acquainted is a fair term, I 1 4 think. 1 5 Q: Now, before I asked you about your 1 6 area of responsibility for the board from 1 7 1 9 6 6 to 1 9 6 8. Did that change in any way 1 8 from 1 9 6 8 to 1 9 7 2, or did you still have 1 9 the.area of responsibility as 2 0 vice-president of technology? 2 1 A: Wait a second. 19 - - I was the 2 2 -- let's see. 1966. I was general 2 3 manager of international. 2 4 Q: You joined the board in November. 2 5 1 9 6 6, and you joined -- you said that you Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042534 ________________________________________________________________________ 3_0 1 j o i n e d the management committee at the same 2 time. 3 A: Okay. All right. Let me think 4 again. What was your question, again? 5 Q : My question is, did anything 6 change from 1 9 6 8 to 1 9 7 2 in terms of your 7 areas of responsibility on the board or the 8 management committee? 9 A: Now, the period of time you're 1 0 asking about I moved from general manager 1 1 of international to vice-president for 1 2 technology. 1 3 Q : And what year did that happen? 1 4 A: That would be early '67. 1 5 Q : So - 1 6 A: So they did change. 1 7 Q : Did you stay as vice-president of 1 8 technology during the entire time of '68 to 19 ' 72 ? 2 0 As No. No. '68 to '72, yes. I'm 2 1 sorry. Yes. 2 2 Q : So, your role on the management 2.3 committee was as the person who was 2 4 responsible for the1development of 2 5 technology in the corporation? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON00425- i _______________________________________________________________________ 3_1 1 As Right. 2 Qs When you said that the general 3 managers had' considerable authority, were 4 you referring to the general managers of 5 the organic division and the inorganic 6 division or is there some other - 7 A: Well, all of them had considerable 8 authority. Some organizations are run 9 entirely by the P & L statement. In a 1 0 company that was integrated as much as 1 1 Monsanto was then, it had to be operated 1 2 only on a partial basis that way. Sure, 1 3 the bottom line was critical, but there was 1 4 some divisions actually made intermedeates 1 5 for other divisions, and the other division 1 6 would use it as well as other customers 1 7 outside. In trying to be helpful here, I'd 1 8 have to express the fact that there had to 1 9 be a lot of collegiality that was existing 2 0 in the company at that time. 2 1 Q: Which division had responsibility 2 2 for the Aroclors? 2 3 A: I just simply can't remember how 2 4 that capital was divided up. I'd have to 2 5 refresh myself with factual material in Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042536 a*** ---- ------ -- "** ' 32 1 order to give you a direct answer on that. 2 Q: Do you have any recollection that 3 it was the organic division that was - 4 A: Well, the organic division had 5 responsibility for some of the products 6 that involved Aroclors, and I don't 7 remember when some of the responsibilities 8 for the capital that was assigned -- I 9 just don't remember the dates of those 1 0 things. I'd have to look at some 1 1 information that would help me refresh. 1 2 Q: Now, you said that the general 1 3 managers had responsibility for maximizing 1 4 earnings on assets within their division? 1 5 A: That was one of their assignments, 1 6 of course. 1 7 Q: To develop new markets and new 1 8 products? 1 9 A: That's right. 2 0 Q: Take as a hypothetical that one 2 1 product within one division is losing in 2 2 profitability, is losing in margin, is it 2 3 then up to the manager of that division to 2 4 develop other products that make up the 2 5 profit, or, in other words, does each Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042537 l _________________________________________________________________________________ 33 1 division have its own budget that it has to 2 make? . 3 MR. PREUSS : What's the question, 4 the last part? 5 MS. WELCH : Does each division 6 have its own budget that it has to make? 7 A : Yes. 8 Q: So that means that if one product 9 is losing, that it's -- losing profit 1 0 within that division, that must be made up? 1 1 MR. PREUSS: Well, I'm going to 1 2 object to the hypothetical as being an 1 3 incomplete answer as stated. Obviously, 1 4 many factors may go into the decision on 1 5 that. You can answer, if you can. 1 6 A: I didn't hear -- were you talking 1 7 to me then? 1 8 MR. PREUSS.: I was talking to the 1 9 record, actually. I should have spoken 2 0 louder. I said I objected to the question 2 1 on to the basis that it was an incomplete 2 2 hypothetical without sufficient facts to 2 3 answer, stated as simply as she did. 2 4 MS. WELCH: To the extent that you 2 5 can answer, if you understand the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042538 ___________________________________________________________________________________ 3_4 1 question. 2 A: Well, it's a hypothetical 3 question, and every manager in every 4 corporate organization has that as a 5 responsibility. So, the answer is yes. If 6 there is a reason for the loss of 7 profitability that permits attention to it, 8 it's his job to see that that's done. 9 Q: In other words, to develop other 1 0 products that make up the budget within his 1 1 division? 1 2 A: Well, for a product that may be 1 3 losing money, sure, it's his 1 4 responsibility, assuming that it once made 1 5 money, he has to find out why did that 1 6 happen, are there corrections that can be 1 7 made, or are the corrections being made, 1 8 and he has to satisfy himself that sooner 1 9 or later they're either going to correct 2 0 the situation or, if that can't happen, 2 1 then he'll have to seek substitutes for 2 2 it. So, since it is a hypothetical 2 3 question, I don't knowhow to answer you 2 4 anyotherway. 2 5 Q: Okay. How often were the budgets Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042539 35 1 reviewed by the management committee? 2 A : They were prepared annually, of 3 course, and they were reviewed between a 4 general manager and the president. That 5 would be a private meeting that they would 6 have. Those things would he reviewed 7 pretty thoroughly every month. 8 Q: To determine whether the division 9 was on target? 1 0 A : Yes. 1 1 Q: And what role did the corporate 1 2 management committee have in that process? 1 3 A: Some of the members of the 1 4 corporate management committee were also 1 5 members of the board, so they would have 1 6 those fiduciary responsibilities as board 1 7 individuals, to be up-to-date on the causes 1 8 and the corrections that were being made to 1 9 bring things up to the expectation of the 2 0 budgets. And that was -- I guess I'd use 2 1 the word continuous. 2 2 Q: Would it be up to the corporate 2.3 management committee to vote on a budget, 2 4 for instance, or would that be a matter 2 5 between the president and general manager Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042540 .j'i ______________________________________________________________________________________ 3_6 1 of the division? 2 A: The corporate management committee 3 would be responsible for each person 4 sharing his expertise, his views on the 5 validity or the doability -- is that a word 6 -- yes, on the doability of that budget, 7 and would express his views, but the final 8 decision was made by the president, and he 9 would then bring that to the board for 1 0 official approval. And that was done once 1 1 a year. The board was aware on each -- at 1 2 each meeting, which was once each month, 1 3 where the P & L statement stood with 1 4 respect to the budget. 1 5 Q: Mr. Throdahl, I'm sure you're 1 6 aware that this lawsuit concerns .1 7 polychlorinated biphenyls in the Aroclor 1 8 products? 1 9 .A: Yes, 2 0 Q: Was it the corporate management 2 1 committee that made the ultimate decision 2 2 to get Monsanto out of the business of 2 3 polychlorinated biphenyls? 2 4 A: Remember, now, the final decision 2 5 is the president's. The corporate Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042541 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 3_7 1 management committee unanimously 2 recommended that that be done. 3 Qs Do you recall the period of time 4 that the corporate management committee 5 considered the termination of 6 polychlorinated biphenyls? 7 A: Do I remember the period? 8 Q: The general period. Do you have a 9 recollection of the general period? 1 0 As Those are the years you've been 1 1 asking me about. 1 2 Q: So, when I asked you about the 1 3 division between could a business group 1 4 decide one thing or a division decide one 1 5 thing, this was a decision that would have 1 6 been up -- or that was left up to the 1 7 corporate management committee? 1 8 MR. PREUSS ; What was a decision? 1 9 . MS. WELCH: The termination of 2 0 PCB s . 2 1 A: Well, ask me the question again, 2 2 please. 2 3 Q: With reference to the termination 2 4 of PCB products, or, better put, the 2 5 withdrawal of PCB products, was this Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042542 1 1 decision left up to the corporate 38 2 management committee and the president as 3 opposed to the division that was 4 responsible for producing Aroclors? 5 A: I see. Yes. Yes, this was the 6 -- this was an example of an oversight 7 role of the management committee, that they 8 looked at the entire picture of all of the 9 environmental and other factors and they, 1 0 in a sense, said for the good of the 1 1 customers -- although that was going to be 1 2 a tough decision, but for the good of the 1 3 customers and the general public, we should 1 4 withdraw. And the president so informed 1 5 the general manager of, at that time it was 1 6 the organic division that was in the 1 7 business of making and marketing the 1 8 Aroclors in various blends and forms and 1 9 compositions. There was a whole string of 2 0 products that had different uses. Since 2 1 you're referring to that as a group of 2 2 products, they had different uses, some of 2 3 which had to do with enclosed systems, some 2 4 of which were open systems, and the 2 5 management committee spent a lot of time as Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042543 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 3_9 1 individuals and as a group considering all 2 of the aspects of t hese things before that 3 final decision was made. 4 Q: As vice-president of technology 5 duringthe period of time that this 6 decision was being considered, what was - 7 what did you do in terms of investigating 8 the issue? 9 A; What did I do personally? 1 0 Q: Yes. If anything. 1 1 A: I can't tell you anything specific 1 2 about it. 1 3 Q: Did you, for instance, talk to 1 4 researchers within the corporation? 1 5 A: Of course. 1 6 Q: And get their input into what they 1 7 thought the scope of the problem was? 1 8 A: Of course. 1 9 Q: Do you recall any researchers' 2 0 names who you spoke to? 2 1 A: Not at this moment. Well, let's 2 2 see. Well, there was a man named Tracy 2 3 Patrick and a man named Martin Farrar who 2 4 were assistant research directors, I 2 5 believe. There was another one in terms of ,Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042544 I ______________________________________________________________________________________ 4 0 1 -- oh, heavens. I'd have to refresh 2 myself. I just -- I can't recall 3 precisely who had what responsibility at 4 that time. 5 Q : During this period of time, and 6 I'm referring to the period of time from 7 1968 to 1972 now, approximately what 8 percentage of your time was spent on the 9 consideration of PCB issues? 1 0 A: Well, it was less than 20. That's 1 1 a good break point. 1 2 Q : Besides talking to researchers 1 3 about the PCB problem, what else did you do 1 4 to acquaint yourself with the problem? 1 5 A: Well, there were a number of - 1 6 there were a number of informal 1 7 conferences. There certainly were reports 1 8 that were prepared about them. And my 1 9 recollection would be that there were any 2 0 number of meetings that were held, and I 2 1 probably attended some, but not all of 2 2 them. But I do not recall precisely what I 2 3 did. 2 4 Q: Did the board of directors 2 5 ultimately consider the decision to _____________________________________________________________________________________________ Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042545 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 4JL 1 withdraw from the production of PCBs or was 2 that a decision that was left to the 3 corporate management committee? 4 A: No. The corporate management - 5 you have to understand, the president made 6 the decision. No. The president made the 7 final recommendation to the board. In 8 fact, he said that all the factors 9 considered, we were phasing out of the 1 0 businesses. He gave the board a thorough 1 1 review of all of the background, a plan for 1 2 the movement of the product out, what we 1 3 were going to do about the customers and so 1 4 on. And the board was -- the board 1 5 ratified it. My memory says he didn't ask 1 6 the board's permission, he said that we 1 7 were going to do that. 1 8 Q: Who was the president who did 1 9 this? 2 0 ' A: Mr. Ed Bock, B-o-c-k. 2 1 Q: Were you present at the board 2 2 meeting where this presentation was made? 2 3 A : Yes. 2 4 Q: Do you have any recollectio.n of 2 5 when that was? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042546 i ______________________________________________________________________________________ 42 1 A: No. Not really. I think it was 2 1970, somewhere along there. Again, I'd 3 have to refresh myself. 4 Q : Who took the notes of the 5 management committee meetings, in general? 6 A: The secretary did. You want to 7 know his name, I guess? I think it was Mr. 8 Ehlers, E-h-l-e-r-s. 9 Q: And you testified earlier that you 1 0 reviewed these notes. Did you generally 1 1 find them accurate descriptions of what 1 2 occurred at the meeting? 1 3 A: Yes. He was a lawyer. 1 4 Q: Trouble. 1 5 A: He had to be accurate. 1 6 Q: Prior to joining the board, how 1 7 would you describe your knowledge of 1 8 Aroclors? Did you have intimate knowledge 1 9 of Aroclors? 2 0 A: You said prior? 2 1 Q: Prior to joining the board, prior 2 2 to November 1966, how much knowledge did 2 3 you have of the product line of Aroclors? 2 4 MR. PREUSS : I'm going to object 2 5 to the form as terribly ambiguous. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042547 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 4_3 1 As Well, let me put it this way, the 2 organic chemicals division at that time had 3 a stable of hundreds of products. Some of 4 these products were called intermediates. 5 These were chemicals that were sold under a 6 chemical name. And other companies might 7 make the same identical aniline, phenol, 8 derivatives of aniline, derivatives of 9 phenol. And then some of the products were 1 0 what we call functional products, customers 1 1 purchased these and used them either in 1 2 their own manufacture, their own -- maybe 1 3 they had products, their own products that 1 4 used these in one way or another without 1 5 changing their chemical identity. Okay? 1 6 So, there were hundreds of these that were 1 7 in v o g-u e . These fit certain criteria, 1 8 chemicals for rubber processing, chemicals 1 9 f o r. p e t r o 1 e urn , chemicals for plasticizer 2 0 application. Vinyl chloride by itself has 2 1 no use. When you plasticize it, it can be 2 2 then shaped into a myriad of end products. 2 3 We had agricultural pesticides at that 2 4 time, and so on. So, how familiar was I, 2 5 how intimately familiar was I? I guess I Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042548 I __________________________________________________________________________ ____________4 4 1 knew all of the products, I knew their 2 processes, by and large, in a generic way, 3 I knew their applications in a generic 4 way. I had come from the rubber chemicals 5 part of the business, so that my memory was 6 better, in more detail for that product 7 line. But as a director of research or 8 director of development or marketing, my 9 role in understanding those products was 1 0 one of oversight and, therefore, I would 1 1 not have either the opportunity or the time 1 2 to be intimately familiar with every single 1 3 detail. The research department in the 1 4 organic division at that time probably had 1 5 4 0 0 people in it, and so it was not 1 6 possible to even know what each person was 1 7 doing specifically on a day by day basis. 1 8 Q: Had you ever heard of PCBs 1 9 referred to as toxic? 2 0 A: Well, of course, they're not 2 1 toxic. 2 2 Q: Why do you say of course, they're 2 3 not toxic? 2 4 A: They're not.' There is no evidence 2 5 of a scientific medical nature that says Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042549 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 4_5 1 they're toxic. 2 Q: Okay. I'd like to introduce as 3 Exhibit 703 the following document. 4 (Deposition Exhibit Number 5 7 0 3 mark'd for identification) . 6 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 703 is a two 7 page document dated August 30, 1957. It 8 purports to be a memorandum to P.G. 9 Benignus from L.V. Sherwood, and I note 1 0 that Mr. Throdahl is cc'd on here. Bates 1 1 stamp Tran 053674 to Tran 053675. Mr. 1 2 Throdahl, if you could take a few minutes 1 3 to review this document. Who is L.V. 1 4 Sherwood, do you recall? 1 5 A: Yes. He was the manager of the 1 6 pesticide group in the development 1 7 department . 1 8 Q: This is 1957, so you at this point 1 9 had. moved over to development or to 2 0 research? 2 1 A: Yes. 2 2 Q: You were in development as opposed 2 3 toresearch? 2 4 A: Yes. 2 5 Q: Please turn your attention to the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON00425E i ______________________________________________________________________________________ 4_6 1 second full paragraph. The statement is, 2 "You may already know that since Aroclors 3 are toxic," et cetera. Do youthen 4 disagree with the statement by Mr. Sherwood 5 that Aroclors are toxic? 6 A: I do not know the basis that he 7 was using at that time for making that 8 statement. Sherwood was an agronomist by 9 training, Benignus was a chemist by 1 0 training, and at that time I think Benignus 1 1 was involved somewhere in either research 1 2 or he may have been in technical service 1 3 with marketing. I can't remember that. 1 4 But Sherwood was a different -- had a 1 5 different educational background.' What 1 6 Sherwood is saying here is that you should 1 7 have come to me before you've done what 1 8 you've done here. And Benignus had been 1 9 one. of the pioneers in developing Aroclors 2 0 for use in a whole range of dielectric 2 1 materials, functional fluids, heat transfer 2 2 systems and the like. And Benignus, among 2 3 many of the chemists, had literally been 2 4 exposed many, many times to lots and lots 2 5 of Aroclors, polychlorinated biphenyls, and Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042551 ________________________________________________________________________________ 47 1 there was -- when Benignus, and certainly 2 those of us such as myself had seen the 3 inertness of these materials, we found no 4 evidence to us in the 19 5 0 ' s that, indeed, 5 these were toxic to humans as we handled 6 them. What Sherwood is saying here is that 7 the government regulations in 1957 were 8 such that he could not do these things 9 without proof to the -- I guess it would be 1 0 the USDA at that time, because EPA didn't 1 1 exist. But, at any rate, this is Sherwood 1 2 slapping his wrists politely, saying you 1 3 can't do this without approval and without 1 4 your proof to give to the people who will 1 5 give the approval. 1 6 Q: Later on on that same page Mr. 1 7 Sherwood says, referring to labels, "Even 1 8 then the label must show safe handling 1 9 procedures, since Aroclor is toxic." The 2 0 next to the last paragraph. 2 1 A: I'm sorry. "Even then the label 2 2 must show safe handling procedures 2 3 since" - - 2 4 MR. PREUSS: Well, what's the 2 5 question? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042552 i _________________________________________________________________________________ 48 1 MS. WELCH : The question is the 2 same question as before, because I'm not 3 sure that you responded to it. Do you 4 disagree with Mr. Sherwood's formulation 5 here that Aroclor is toxic? 6 A: I don't know how to answer that. 7 I don't know where he was coming from. And 8 this is 35 years later. I just don't 9 remember. 1 0 Q: Okay. I'd like to jump forward a 1 1 few years from that and ask you if you 1 2 recall when the issue of PCBs as a problem 1 3 first presented itself to you? In other 1 4 words, when the issue that PCBs may become 1 5 an environmental, or may be an 1 6 environmental problem was first presented 1 7 to you? 1 8 MR. PREUSS: Well, let me object 1 9 to the form of the question. You keep 2 0 calling it a problem. Are you talking 2 1 about when PCBs were first known to persist 2 2 in the environment. 2 3 MS. WELCH: No, that's not my 2 4 question. My question is when it first 2 5 jumped out as different from the other Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042553 .r> ' ______________________________________________________________________________________ 4 9 1 chemicals that Monsanto produced because it 2 may present certain.problems to the 3 environment, whether that be persistence or 4 something else, just that there was an 5 issue. 6 MR. P REUS S : Well, is it that it 7 was an issue or that it was a problem? I 8 object to the form of the question. 9 MS. WELCH: Well, let's describe 1 0 it as an issue. When did the PCB issue 1 1 first present itself to you, do you recall? 1 2 A: I don't. I don't recall when. I 1 3 know that -- let's see, what do I know? 1 4 When did I first learn of it? That's 1 5 awfully fuzzy. There isn't any question 1 6 that PCBs were invented and commercialized 1 7 because they were so inert, so safe in 1 8 terms of fire. They had -- some of them 1 9 had lubricant properties, and the inertness 2 0 and those other properties that they had 2 1 meant that these were used in a number of 2 2 applications for many, many years in which 2 3 there was no consumer, meaning the 2 4 customer, no customer concerns that these 2 5 things were toxic to them. Since this Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042554 wr, ______________________________________________________________________________________ 5 0 1 persisted in the environment, and it 2 persisted because of its inertness, very3 tiny amounts of that would be found in a 4 number of portions of the environment, 5 sedimentation at the bottom of rivers, and 6 people used -- I guess they got to the 7 point where they were unconcerned that 8 there would be occasional spills of them. 9 But this has got to go back so much in time 1 0 that I don't remember a point of 1 1 discontinuity that first riveted my 1 2 attention that these were really issues. 1 3 Qj Do you have any recollection of 1 4 who first brought it to your attention? 1 5 A : No . 1 6 Q: Do you have any recollection of 1 7 whether it was first brought to your 1 8 attention by a colleague at Monsanto as 1 9 opposed to by reading something in a 2 0 newspaper? 2 1 A: No, I honestly can't. 2 2 Q: Please introduce as Exhibit 704 2 3 the following document. 2 4 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 5 7 0 4 mark'd for identification) . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042555 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 5JL 1 MS. WELCH : Exhibit 7 0 4 purports 2 to be a document by the name of "Minutes of 3 Meeting of the Corporate Development 4 Committee," dated April 22, 1968. Present 5 are a number of people, including Mr. 6 Throdahl. And it has the identifying stamp 7 of ADM 0 0 6 0 4 to ADM 0 0 6 0 4 6. And I note 8 that there is no 45 in there. Please take 9 a minute to review this document. 1 0 A: Okay. 1 1 Q: Who, if you recall, was Dr. 1 2 Anagnostopoulos? 1 3 As Anagnostopoulos. 1 4 Q: I was close. 1 5 AsWhowashe? ' 1 6 Q ; Yes. 1 7 A: In this role -- his first name was 1 8 Constantine and his middle name was 1 9 Emanuel, you can't put that on - - his name 2 0 was Costas. Costas was the general manager 2 1 of this functional fluids group in 1968. 2 2 Q: Do you know if he's still alive? 2 3 A: Yes. 2 4 Q: Do you know how long he stayed as 2 5 manager of the functional fluids group? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042556 I 52 1 A: No, I don't have a detailed 2 recollection of that. He moved on and did 3 some other management of other product 4 groups within that organic division later 5 on. But I'm not familiar with when he may 6 have changed. 7 Q: Have you heard of a man by the 8 name of Mr. Bergen? 9 A: Howard Bergen, yes. 1 0 Q: Do you know if he took the place 1 1 of the good doctor here at some point as 1 2 head of the functional fluids group? 1 3 A: I think so. 1 4 Q: No recollection as to when that 1 5 happened? 1 6 A : No. 1 7 Q: Do you recall if the functional 1 8 fluids group was a profitable one for 1 9 Monsanto in 1968? 2 0 A : Yes. 2 1 Q: When you say yes, was it more 2 2 profitable than other groups or about as 2 3 profitable as other groups? 2 4 A: I'm fuzzy about that. Let's say 2 5 that it was one of the growth areas of the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042557 ______________________________________________________________________________ 5_3 1 organic division at that time. Phosphate 2 esters were the basis of some products 3 called Skydrauls which were fire-resistant 4 hydraulic fluids for aircraft, and that 5 whole market of safety, which is what these 6 were for, was one that was gaining more and 7 more customer recognition. So, that's why 8 it was of interest to us. 9 Q: How about the Aroclors within the 1 0 group, were they also profitable? 1 1 A: I would expect so. But I don't 1 2 remember in detail. 1 3 Q: Do you have any recollection of 1 4 what the expectation for the return on 1 5 investment was at that time? Because there 1 6 is a reference here to "The product group 1 7 expects to be above the 1 9 6 8 budget in 1 8 terms of return on investment". 1 9 A: Do I remember what the -2 0 Q: Return on investment for that 2 1 group was? 2 2 A: No. No, I honestly can't 2 3 remember. It was certainly -- well, when 2 4 you're in an area where the demands are . 2 5 high and the performance of these things is Gore Reporting Co,, Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042558 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 5j4 1 appropriate, unlike electronics today, 2 these things were profitable. But I can't 3 remember the details. 4 Q: In the second paragraph there is a 5 reference to the domestic supply position. 6 What was the domestic supply position? 7 A: Well, domestic means U.S. 8 Q: Correct. 9 A: And I assume here that what they 1 0 wanted to be certain of -- okay. It says 1 1 key issue, how to increase the sales while 1 2 maintaining the supply position and 1 3 profitability. Well, we had to be sure 1 4 that there was enough capacity so that as 1 5 we develop new uses, new markets, that we 1 6 had the ability to serve the customer. I 1 7 think that's what this means. 1 8 Q: So, the expectation was that it 1 9 would be a growth market? 2 0 A: Well, you have to understand, I 2 1 tried to explain to you a few minutes ago 2 2 that many chemicals that were functional in 2 3 their nature, functional meaning they could 2 4 be used without further change, they had 2 5 different applications, and so, therefore, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042559 I 55 1 other product groups not under Dr. 2 Anagnostopou1os ' supervision would be using 3 Aroclors themselves for other purposes, you 4 see. So, again, I don't know, I don't 5 remember how the accounting was handled for 6 this. Do you consider transferring -- the 7 cost of Aroclor manufacture of the neat 8 material, do you transfer that at cost or 9 do you transfer that at market price? And 1 0 you can see there would be a lot of 1 1 arguments pro and con. And I think that 1 2 this is one of the situations where that 1 3 argument was pro and con. If 1 4 Anagnostopou1os had to pay market price for 1 5 his Aroclors, that was one thing. If he 1 6 could pay the cost of the Aroclor to the 1 7 manufacturing division or the plant that 1 8 made it, that would be different. But he'd 1 9 have to assume responsibility for certain 2 0 capital. And you're getting into a real YJP- sr'i ^ 2 1 rabbit w a r' here as far as details are 2 2 concerned. All I can tell you is that I 2 3 think this means here, that for a growth 2 4 area, that the important point here was 2 5 make sure you've got enough so that you can Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042560 ___________________________________________ ___________________________________________5 6 1 satisfy the customer. However, we argued 2 about it internally. Does this make sense 3 to you, I mean, my explanation? 4 Q: Yes. I think you're doing well. 5 A; All right. 6 Q: Turning to the bottom, there is 7 discussion of Therminol. "We have about a 8 one million dollar business in'68 and a 9 target of 10 to 20 million by '72". Does 1 0 that accurately describe the expectation of 1 1 growth to you in that market? 1 2 A: Yes. If he can make it go tenfold 1 3 in four years, that would be very good. 1 4 Q: It says that a target of 10 1 5 percent of the transformer market'by 1972 1 6 has been set. Do you know if that means - 1 7 or do you know if 90 percent of the 1 8 transformer market was for other chemicals 1 9 as opposed to Aroclors? 2 0 A: Well, transformers would use 2 1 mineral oil if they didn't use Aroclors. 2 2 Q: Do you know if 90 percent used 2 3 mineral oil as opposed to Aroclors? 2 4 A: They'd have to, because there 2 5 wasn't any other material used, as far as Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042561 I ______________________________________________________________________________________ 5_7 1 my memory tells me. 2 Q: Please introduce as Exhibit 705 3 the following document. 4 (Deposition Exhibit Number 5 705 mark'd for identification). 6 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 7 0 5 is a one 7 page memorandum from Tom C. Ford to a 8 number of recipients, including Mr. 9 Throdahl, dated March 6, 1969, with the 1 0 identifying stamp of Tran 059440. Please 1 1 take a minute to review this. 1 2 A : Okay. 1 3 Q: Do you recall hearing in 1969 1 4 about the publicity about the contamination 1 5 of wildlife by PCBs? 1 6 A : Yes. 1 7 Q: Does this help refresh your 1 8 recollection abou.t when you first heard 1 9 about it, or do you believe you heard about 2 0 it before this time? 2 1 A: I would not have known about this 2 2 before. I would have been -- I would have 2 3 known that small, very small amounts of 2 4 PCBs had been found in wildlife, birds, 2 5 fish, so on, and there was investigative Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042562 1 work going on in the universities that 58 2 these had been found. But whether I knew 3 much before '69, my memory doesn't help me 4 here. I don't know whether that's -- all 5 I can say is that probably is a way to 6 inform some of these other people on the 7 list that would not have been following 8 this to the extent that I might have been. 9 There are men's names here like Mr. Morgan, 1 0 who was a financial V.P, , and I would doubt 1 1 that Mr. Putzell would have followed this 1 2 much, being general counsel. But this kind 1 3 of work that was done is typical of the 1 4 kind of thing that are in the awareness 1 5 category, are you aware of something. You 1 6 may have seen references to it. This goes 1 7 on, you know, in my daily reading now. Am 1 8 I aware of something? No. I've maybe 1 9 heard about something long in advance, but 2 0 I paid almost no attention to it. So, if 2 1 you're asking about awareness, this was 2 2 probably a good awareness note to send to 2 3 these people. But I can't answer you any 2 4 more specifically about did I know about 2 5 anything of PCBs before '69. I probably Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042563 i ______________________________________________________________________________________ 5_9 1 did, but I don't remember. 2 Q: Do you recall hearing about Dr. 3 Risebrough? ' 4 A: Well, I knew who he was, yes. 5 Q: How did you know who he was? 6 A: Because it says so here. 7 Q: What do you remember about him? 8 A: That he was -- he was either a 9 biologist at the University of California 1 0 or he was -- let's see,I guess - 1 1 whether he was a biologist or whether he 1 2 was a biological chemist, I honestly don't 1 3 remember. And I don't know. 1 4 Q: What do you remember about his 1 5 work? 1 6 A: Very little. 1 7 Q: Do you recall that he found the 1 8 presence of PCBs in Peregrine Falcon eggs? 1 9 .A: No. I don't recall it. 2 0 Q: Do you recall hearing about the 2 1 work of Widmark and Jensen in Sweden? 2 2 A: Yes. I don't remember when I 23 recalled it, but I knew that there was a 2 4 group of Swedish scientists who were 2 5 naturalists. Their specialties, they were Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042564 ______________________________________________________________________________________ 6jD 1 interested in -- they were equipped, let's 2 say, with analytical devices that permitted 3 miniscule amounts of something to be 4 detected, and so they found this, among 5 other things, in certain kinds of wildlife. 6 Q: By miniscule amounts, are you 7 referring to -- what are you referring to? 8 A: Less than parts per million, 9 usually. That seems like a lot today, 1 0 but - 1 1 Q: Who is Tom Ford? 1 2 A: Well, Tom Ford was in the -- was 1 3 in the public relations department at that 1 4 time. 1 5 Q: You described some of the 1 6 recipients on this list, and I'm 1 7 specifically referring to the direct - 1 8 where it says "To". Were all of these 1 9 people members of the management committee 2 0 atthetime? 2 1 A : Yes. 2 2 Q: Do you recall what your reaction 2 3 to hearing about this controversy at this 2'4 time was? 2 5 MR. PREUSS: Well, you Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 . HARTOLDMON0042565 i ______________________________________________________________________________ 6_1 1 characterize it as a controversy, I object 2 to the form of the question as 3 argumentative. - 4 MS. WELCH: I'll rephrase it. Do 5 you recall what your reaction to hearing 6 about the publicity at this time was? 7 A: I do not recall the reaction to 8 this specific memorandum. I do recall that 9 from the time that this kind of publicity 1 0 began to emerge, that the corporate 1 1 management committee would have been 12 serious, they did not look at this as 1 3 frivolous. But if you say how did I know 1 4 that, the nature of these people was such 1 5 that ever since -- in my own period of 1 6 being in the corporation, management was 1 7 very concerned about its customers and its 1 8 employees and the people who transported 1 9 pro.ducts, they were concerned about their 2 0 personal safety. So, how much someone like 2 1 Finis Morgan would have appreciated that a 2 2 man named Risebrough had found PCBs in the 2 3 Peregrine Falcon, I'm sure the awareness 2 4 with someone like Finis would be such that 2 5 he would say well, I see that, and it's not Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750. (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042566 _____________________;________________________________________________________ 6_2 1 my responsibility and I'm certain somebody 2 else is trying to put that into 3 perspective. And I'm imagining something 4 here. But your question is really based on 5 awareness, and what this would do to the 6 awareness of these people. All I can tell 7 you is that I'm sure they took it 8 seriously. 9 Q: My question was a little 1 0 different. It was what was your reaction 1 1 to the publicity? 1 2 A: Well, I don't remember about this 1 3 specific memorandum, no. 1 4 Q: About the overall publicity during 1 5 this period? 1 6 A: Much of the published data that 1 7 came in the scientific literature in that 1 8 period of time on finding amounts of 1 9 polychlorinated biphenyls, they found other 2 0 substances, too. And this was the 2 1 beginning of investigations that were going 2 2 on in other parts of the world. I 2 3 certainly took the awareness fairly 2 4 seriously, because I really didn't know the 2 5 significance of those tiny amounts, but Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042567 i ______________________________________________________________________________________ 6 3 1 that we certainly had to be aware. And 2 when we knew enough in our awareness to 3 take some action, it would be my 4 responsibility to see what action we ought 5 to take. 6 Q: As the vice-president of 7 technology? 8 A: Well, yes, at that time. 9 Q: Do you mean responsibility in 1 0 terms of what action with respect to what 1 1 products do we now develop? 1 2 A: Well, there is a big gap here 1 3 between making something in a plant down' 1 4 this direction and finding it in some wierd 1 5 place out in the environment thousands and 1 6 thousands of miles away. So, how some of 1 7 these things, being inert as they were, 1 8 were to get into the life cycle system of 1 9 the. Peregrine Falcon or fish or birds, 2 0 other birds, is a story in itself, and 2 1 that's what made the awareness so difficult 2 2 to come by. 2 3 Q; Well, let me ask it this way, when 2 4 you first heard about Jensen's and . 2 5 Widmark's work in identifying even small Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042568 t ______________________________________________________________________________________ 6_4 1 amounts of PCBs in various species, did you 2 accept that they had, indeed, found and 3 identified PCBs? 4 As I think in the early stages we 5 were not convinced that what they had done 6 was valid. 7 Q : And do you recall why you were not 8 convinced? 9 A: Well, this is a typical reaction 1 0 that scientific people have when someone 1 1 says he has found something that is 1 2 unusual. You'd like to say tell us how you 1 3 did it and prove to us that you weren't 1 4 measuring an artefact of something else. 1 5 And I think a lot of that has come about. 1 6 There are still people that are filing 1 7 patents on perpetual motion machines. 1 8 There are still people that are claiming a ./ 1 9 generation of energy from coal" fusion. And 2 0 they get a lot of publicity about it, they 2 1 get people to publish their stuff. And we 2 2 looked at some of this stuff on PCBs in the 2.3 very early stages, and we took it 2 4 seriously, but we. said we honestly don't 2 5 believe some of it. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042569 __________________________________________________________________________________ 6J5 1 Q: Did you ever come to accept the 2 findings of Jensen and Widmark? 3 A: You're asking me about two 4 specific people and their work. And 5 without me refreshing myself as to their 6 exact publication, I couldn't answer that. 7 Q: Let me rephrase it. Did you ever 8 come to accept the work of the scientists 9 who were finding PCBs in the environment? 1 0 A : Yes. 1 1 Q: Do you recall about when that 1 2 acceptance came? 1 3 A: I cannot recall at this sitting 1 4 without refreshing my memory. 1 5 MS. WELCH: Why don't we take a 1 6 break. 1 7 (Recess) . 1 8 MS. WELCH: I'd like to introduce 1 9 this as Exhibit 706. 2 0 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 1 706 mark'd for identification). 2 2 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 706 purports 2 3 to be a letter on Monsanto stationery to a 2 4 Robert T. Inn.is of Westinghouse Electric 2 5 Corporation, dated March 3, 1969, signed by Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042570 ,r. ______________________________________________________________________________6 6 1 Elmer P. Wheeler, with a number of 2 identifying stamps. I'm going to use the 3 one that's T 091767 to T 091769. Please 4 take a few minutes to read this. 5 A : Okay. 6 Q: Do you recall seeing this letter 7 previous to this time? 8 A : No . 9 Q : Do you recall seeing a statement 1 0 like this previous to this time? 1 1 A: A statement like this? There are 1 2 several statements here. 1 3 Q: A letter. Do you recall seeing 1 4 this overall statement in another form, for 1 5 instance, as a press release? ' 1 6 A: I'm sure that many communications 1 7 like this took place. But what this letter 1 8 is saying here is that when you're dealing 1 9 -- let's see, parts per billion, you're 2 0 getting down ten to the minus ninth and 2 1 below, and Elmer was saying that the 2 2 complication of competing unknown materials 2 3 that can give phoney readings, phoney not 2 4 in an illegal or an immoral sense, .just 2 5 readings that you thought you were Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042571 ______________________________________________________________ ______________ 6 7 1 measuring PCBs and you probably were 2 measuring something else, this is a natural 3 reaction. But he's also saying in here 4 that we are taking this seriously, even 5 though we don't believe some of it. So, 6 our analytical people for years have had this problem every time you can move one 8 quantum level in refinement, parts per 9 million to parts per billion to parts per 1 0 trillion, even parts per quadrillion, this 1 1 is typical of the reaction that goes on. 1 2 And Wheeler is saying as a professional, he 1 3 said a lot of this stuff we're suspicious 1 4 about, but we're going to take it 1 5 seriously, we're going to learn to do some 1 6 of these things ourselves. And we did. 1 7 And he's saying that since the PCBs that 1 8 the Westinghouse people are using are in 1 9 sealed systems, he's finding it hard to 2 0 believe -- he, Wheeler, is finding it hard 2 1 to believe how these small amounts could be 2 2 found in wildlife. And I think it's a 2 3 responsible memo that says we're going to 2 4 do something about it. 2 5 Q: Do you know if the corporate Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042572 __________________________________________________________________________________ 6_8 1 management committee reviewed and approved 2 this statement before it went out? 3 A: No, I don't know that they 4 reviewed it or approved it. 5 Q: Would that be one of the kinds of 6 functions that the corporate management 7 committee would conduct, or would that be 8 delegated? 9 As I wouldn't think so. 1 0 Q: Please take a look at Exhibit 705 1 1 again. There is a reference in the last 1 2 paragraph to a company statement prepared 1 3 to answer inquiries. And the date of this 1 4 memo is March 6, 1 9 6 9. Do you have any 1 5 knowledge about whether what's being 1 6 referred hereto as an enclosure is this 1 7 March 3rd statement, or March 3rd letter? 1 8 A: Wait a second here. 1 9 Q: I'm referring to the last 2 0 paragraph, where it says "Enclosed is a 2 1 company statement prepared to answer 2 2 inquiries." And the date of this memo to 2 3 you is March 6, 1 9 6 9. The date of this 2 4 letter is March 3, 1969. I'm not asking 2 5 for your speculation, but just whether you Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042573 __________________________________________________________________________________ 6_9 1 know whether this was theletterthat was 2 enclosed with this? 3 A : I don't know. 4 Q: Are you aware of the fact that 5 Jensen and Widmark had found PCBs in the 6 parts per million at the time in 1 9 6 6 ? 7 A: In 1966? 8 Q: Yes. Their work was done in 9 1 9 6 6. Were you aware in 1 9 6 9-- let me 1 0 rephrase -- that Jensen and Widmark had 1 1 found PCBs in the parts per million? 12 MR. PREUSS: I would object as 1 3 assuming facts not in evidence. 1 4 A: I didn't hear you. 1 5 MR. PREUSS: I just objected for 1 6 the record that she was assuming facts not 1 7 in evidence. In other words, she's making 1 8 a statement that they found it in parts per 1 9 million as opposed to some other quantum. 2 0 MS . WELCH : And - - 2 1 A: What is your question? 2 2 MS. WELCH: My question to you is, 2.3 were you aware that Jensen and Widmark had 2 4 found PCBs in parts -per million? Were you 2 5 aware in 1969? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042574 70 1 A: You are very specific about those 2 two investigators and that date, and I 3 would have to say I don't know. 4 Q: Okay. Please introduce as Exhibit 5 707 the following document. 6 (Deposition Exhibit Number 7 7 0 7 mark'd for identification) . 8 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 7 0 7 is a two 9 page document, it purports to be a 1 0 memorandum to Dr. Kelly from Mr. Wheeler, 1 1 dated March 7, 1969, with the identifying 1 2 stamp, a number of them, I'll use the T 1 3 091770 to T 091771. 1 4 A: Okay. 1 5 Q: Did you know Mr. Wheeler? 1 6 A : Yes. .1 7 Q: Do you recall the lunch that's 1 8 referred to in this letter? 1 9 . A : No . 2 0 Q: Do you recall having a discussion 2 1 with Mr. Wheeler about this time about the 2 2 whole problem as referred to by Mr. 2 3 Wheeler? 2 4 A: Well, it says that I asked him to 2 5 have lunch with him today, so I presumably Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042575 rotVfySnS 'TrHfAv-M' I 71 1 did, but I don't recall it. 2 Q: Do you have any recollection of 3 anything that Mr. Wheeler might have told 4 you or did tell you around that time about 5 the Aroclor problem? 6 A: I think this -- let's assume this 7 is fair, he's reciting things that truly 8 happened. Yes, this indicates that at this 9 point I was more than aware, I was 1 0 concerned about what he would tell me about 1 1 this situation. And out of that, I guess 1 2 it was to add to my understanding, because 1 3 he had read more of this kind of thing and 1 4 had been more deeply involved in it than 1 5 I. As he should have been, that was part 1 6 of his job. So, yes, I think this is a 1 7 fair representation of the concern that I 1 8 was showing at that point. 1 9 Q: Do you recall what he told you? 2 0 A: Not specifically from this. 2 1 Q: Do you recall whether he made a 2 2 presentation to the CDC? 2 3 A: This says here that I might call 2 4 him. I do not know whether that to.ok place 2 5 that following Monday. That's a long time, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042576 6 1 I wouldn't remember that. 2 Q: Do you remember whether a 3 presentation' was made to the CDC about the 4 Aroclor problem before this time? 5 A: Before March '69? 6 Q : Yes. 7 A: I'm sure that must have happened, 8 but I do not recall explicitly without 9 looking at the records. 1 0 Q; Did Mr. Wheeler tell you, or do 1 1 you recall him telling you anything about 1 2 being asked to sign a press release that 1 3 -- strike all that. Please read to 1 4 yourself the fourth paragraph. 1 5 A : Yes. 1 6 Q: Did he relate to youanything 1 7 about letters being brought over to him for 1 8 his signature? . 1 9 . A : I don't r <scall that he did. I 2 0 would suspect he d i d n ' t . 2 1 Q : Why would you suspect that? 2 2 A : It wouldn 't have been necessary 2 3 for him to do that. 2 4 Q: To tell you that? 2 5 A : Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042577 -_.fi 1 Q : Why d o you say that? 2 A : Why d o I say what ? 3 Q : Why do you say that it wouldn't be 4 necessary? 5 As You asked me if he cleared this 6 with me. And I said I would doubt that he 7 did. I don't remember that that 8 specifically. Then you said something 9 else, what did you -1 0 Q: I wasn't asking whether he cleared 1 1 it. I was asking whether he related to you 1 2 what he related here? 1 3 A: And I responded I would doubt that 1 4 he did. He didn't need to do that. 1 5 Q: Mark this as Exhibit 708. 1 6 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 7 708 mark'd for identification) . 1 8 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 708 purports 1 9 to be a quarterly report from the medical 2 0 department for July, August, September 1969 2 1 to Mr. Bock, with a number of cc's, 2 2 including Mr. Throdahl,from Emmet Kelly. 2 3 Identifying stamp Tran 024242 to024247. 2 4 Please take a few minutes to review the 2 5 section -- Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042578 74 1 Section 3? 2 Q : Well, the summary of the most 3 significant developments and environmental 4 control, yes, which is Section 3. 5 A : Okay, 6 Q; Mr. Throdahl, do you recall seeing 7 this document before? 8 A: Do I recall seeing it? No, I do 9 not recall seeing it. My name is on it, I 1 0 obviously did. 1 1 Q: When documents such as this passed 1 2 your desk, did you generally take the time 1 3 to read them? 1 4 A: Absolutely. 1 5 Q: Do you recall around this time, 1 6 which has got to be in September 1969, 1 7 because it sums up July, August, September 1 8 1 9 6 9, increased concern on your part about 1 9 the findings of PCBs in the environment? 2 0 A: That's what it says here. 2 1 Q: I'm asking about your concern 2 2 specifically. 2 3 A: Well, I didn't mean to be flip on 2 4 this. Yes, of course, it refreshes my 2 5 memory that, indeed, you can see here that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMONOQ42579 __________________________________________________________________________________ 7_5 1 there are far more details about testing 2 that we were doing, that we were learning, 3 making certain our analytical research 4 people were on top of this so that we had 5 techniques that, indeed, could verify some 6 of the findings. Yes. This certainly 7 reflected that we were, indeed, taking all 8 of this seriously and trying to -- when we 9 say that the organic division is concerned 1 0 about this, it doesn't mean that they want 1 1 to find excuses, it means we want to find 1 2 the facts. That's what all this is about. 1 3 I haven't seen this, obviously, since the 1 4 time it was issued. So, I think this is a 1 5 fair reflection of the concern that we were 1 6 eliciting, and probably during this period 1 7 I was spending more than twenty percent of 1 8 my time on it. But when you use that as an 1 9 overall average, that's why I would say 2 0 that even then we had other concerns that 2 1 would take time. But I think this is a 2 2 fair statement of what they had done. 2 3 Q: Would you say that by this time, 2 4 the fall of 1 9 6 9, that you had come to 2 5 accept Jensen's and Widmark's conclusions Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042580 __________________________________________________________________________________7 6 1 that they had identified PCBs in the 2 environment? ' 3 A: You're being very specific about 4 those two investigators, and I would say I 5 don't know whether I did or not. 6 Q: How about, had you come to accept 7 that various scientists and governmental 8 agencies had, indeed, identified PCBs in 9 the environment? 1 0 A : Yes. 1 1 Q: Do you recall a report that's 1 2 referred to here that there had been a 1 3 finding by the State Department of 1 4 Agriculture in Connecticut of PCBs in fish? 1 5 A: Do I recall it? Only since I've 1 6 seen it now. 1 7 Q: Do you have any specific 1 8 recollections about reports that there had 1 9 been a finding of PCBs in milk in Georgia 2 0 and Maryland? 2 1 A: No, I do not recall that. 2 2 Q: How about any findings of PCBs in 2 3 fish and water in Lake Michigan? 2 4 A: Yes, I do remember that. 2 5 Q: What do you remember about that? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 , (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042581 l __________________________________________________________________________________ 7J7 1 A; Exactly what you said, that people 2 had tested the waters in certain parts of 3 -- those waters, I think, were in the 4 southern end of the lake. 5 Q: Do you remember what they found in 6 any more detail? 7 A: Not without referring to some 8 records . 9 Q : Do you know how you heard about 1 0 that? 1 1 A: Well, if how means what were my 1 2 techniques for -- 1 3 Q : Who did you hear it from? 1 4 A: I probably learned most of this by 1 5 fairly wide reading of the literature in 1 6 publications such as Science, which is a 1 7 weekly scientific magazine concerning 18 itselfwith events more than specific 1 9 research, and publications of similar kinds 2 0 from the Chemical Society. It's a wide 2 1 selection of reading that someone in my 2 2 position would be doing. Just where a 2 3 specific note would come to me, I can't 2 4 remember that. But we all have to do that 2 5 kind of reading, and so that's where one Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042582 i 78 1 would have picked it up and learned it. 2 Q: Did you have during this time 3 period regular meetings with people who 4 were spending more time on the PCB 5 problems; for instance, researchers within 6 Monsanto? 7 A: Well, I met on a regular basis 8 with Dr. Kelly and his principal people, 9 and so, naturally, we would go over 1 0 information typified by Kelly's report here 1 1 to the committee. 1 2 Q: Have you ever heard of somebody by 1 3 the name of Dr. Keller? 1 4 A: Robert Keller, yes. 1 5 Q: Did you meet with him on a regular 1 6 basis? 1 7 A: Probably not. 1 8 Q: How about Dr. Richard, do you know 1 9 a Dr. Richard? 2 0 A: Dr. William Richard. Yes. 2 1 Indirectly, both Richard and Keller 2 2 reported to me as -- let's see, this is 2 3 '69. Let's see, would I have been in research at that point? I can't remember now. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042583 __________________________________________________________________________________7_9 1 Q: I believe you testified you were 2 the vice-president of technology. 3 A: Yes. That's right. That's why I 4 say, they were -- Richard and Keller - 5 Keller was the group leader of the 6 analytical sciences research -- of 7 analytical sciences research, and it was 8 his job -- I've forgotten who he reported 9 to now -- to develop new methods and new 1 0 refinements, so when the information about 1 1 detecting parts per billion in an 1 2 admixture, take that river water out there, 1 3 it would be his natural instinct to 1 4 understand enough about that so that we, 1 5 the corporation that he was a part of, we 1 6 would be capable of making, I would guess, 1 7 a reasonable decision about the validity of 1 8 some other work scientists do this 1 9 constantly on all kinds of subjects, so I'm 2 0 volunteering some information you may not 2 1 want. But this is what every good 2 2 scientist does. He sees what's going on, 2 3 and if he cannot do what that report says 2 4 was done, and it's in his area of 2 5 expertise, it's natural he's going to say Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042584 i 80 1 why can't I do this or how do I get myself 2 equipped so that I can. And this is the 3 kind of questioning you're asking me. 4 Q: Well, more what I want to know is, 5 did you see his reports, for instance? 6 A: Who,Keller's? 7 Q : Yes. 8 A: I didn't see the reports directly. 9 Q: Did you see them indirectly? 1 0 A: I would see the summations of 1 1 them. 1 2 Q: Who would they work their way 1 3 through to get to you? 1 4 A: I'm sure that some of Keller's 1 5 work is in here. But if you ask me how it 1 6 got there, I just know that Keller and 1 7 Wheeler and others in the medical group had 1 8 frequent and intimate contacts with Keller. 1 9 Q : So, reports about research on the 2 0 PCB issue would filter their way up to you? 2 1 A : Sure. 2 2 Q : Through the corporation? 2 3 A : Sure. 2 4 Q: Were you aware of the impact of 2 5 PCBs on the Escambia River near the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042585  jfi ______________________________________________________________________________8JL 1 Pensacola plant? 2 As At this time? 3 Q : Yes. In 1969. There is a 4 reference to it in this document on page 5 2. 6 A: I do not recall it from memory. I 7 recall it because I was given a copy of 8 this, so I must have known that. 9 Q: From your independent memory, do 1 0 you have any recollection from any time 1 1 period about the issue of the Pensacola 1 2 plant? 1 3 A: I remember reading about that in 1 4 the public press. 1 5 Q: But you don't remember it from 1 6 within Monsanto itself? 1 7 A: Not specifically. 1 8 Q: Do you remember that it was a 1 9 Monsanto plant that was at issue there? 2 0 A: Yes, we had a plant in Pensacola. 2 1 I do not remember explicitly without 2 2 refreshing my memory. 2 3 Q: Why don't you look at the 2 4 paragraph on page 2 which refers to the 2 5 Pensacola plant. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042586 82 1 A: WWhhiicchh oonnee?? 2 Q: It is the fifth paragraph on page 3 2. Next page. 4 A: Okay. What is your question? 5 Q: I would likeyou to readthat 6 paragraph and see if your memory is 7 refreshed at all about the Pensacola plant 8 and the pollution of the Escambia River. 9 A: Okay. 1 0 Q: Is your memory refreshed in any 1 1 way by this? 1 2 A: This explicit incident, I read it, 1 3 and my memory is not refreshed in the sense 1 4 that I remember that specific incident. 1 5 Q: Do you recall hearing that there 1 6 had been the finding by Monsanto that dish 1 7 washing compounds contained PCBs? 1 8 A: I do not recall that. 1 9 Q: Please turn to page 3 and review 2 0 to yourself the paragraph that begins with 2 1 "Briefly, the biological cycle involved is 2 2 as follows," the four points there. 2 3 A : 0kay . 2 4 Q: Do you recall knowing about the 2 5 biological cycle that is referred to here? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042587 I 1 A : Yes. 83 2 Q: And what's your recollection of 3 what you knew about it? 4 A : Disagrees with what I had believed 5 I knew in sort of generic terms. 6 Q: Well, can you put thememorandum 7 down and explain to me what your 8 recollection is of what you knew? 9 A: Well, the recollection is that as 1 0 analytical science became more proficient 1 1 in identifying the existence of substances 1 2 at extreme dilutions of parts per billion 1 3 or thereabouts, they found, first of all, 1 4 that these -- the simplest of biological 1 5 organisms, such as plankton, would somehow 1 6 or other either absorb or become in 1 7 contact, and so as the plankton were eaten 1 8 by other organisms that were more complex 1 9 and they were eaten by other organisms that 2 0 were more complex and so on, clear up the 2 1 line, that the foodstuffs of many of these 2 2 fish and birds here followed the chain, 2 3 it's called the food chain. And, so, I do 2 4 remember that. Where did I learn that? I 2 5 don't know. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042588 __________________________________________________________________________________ 8_4 1 Q: Have you heard the term 2 biomagnification before? 3 A : Yes. 4 Q : And is that what you're 5 describing? 6 As Yes, exactly. Apparently, all of 7 these inert materials, and PCBs were inert, 8 they weren't broken down in the metabolism 9 of these smaller organisms, so that they 1 0 actually just continue right along, and 1 1 just kept on with the food chain, so that's 1 2 why you could find this in milk, you could 1 3 find it elsewhere, in fish livers. This 1 4 just didn't happen, this wasn't a 1 5 breakthrough with fireworks, this was 1 6 laboriously put together over many years by .1 7 many scientists around the world. So the 1 8 idea of the food chain is a long one, and 1 9 it wasn't until analytical science could 2 0 give the answers that this kind of thing 2 1 could be done as neatly as it's done here. 2 2 Q: So you recall knowing this around 2 3 this time? 2 4 A : Yes. 2 5 Q: Do you recall knowing it earlier Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON00425* 1 __________________________________________________________________________________ 8_5 1 than this time? 2 A: I don't recall, no. 3 Q: Turning to the last full paragraph 4 on that page that begins with "The organic 5 division," please read that paragraph to 6 yourself. 7 A : Okay. 8 Q: Do you know what concerted effort 9 was under way to protect the continued 1 0 sales and uses of Aroclors by the organic 1 1 division at this point? 1 2 A: I cannot quantify the word 1 3 concerted here. If concerted means was it 1 4 serious, I have to believe that that's what 1 5 that meant, but the specifics of what was 1 6 being done I cannot answer without 1 7 refreshing myself. 1 8 Q: Who was the head of the organic 1 9 division at this time? 2 0 A: A man named Howard Minckler. 2 1 Q: The next sentence says "It is 2 2 likely, however, that it will be found 2 3 impossible to prevent losses to the 2 4 environment of Aroclors 1252 and 1260 in 2 5 some customer applications," et cetera. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042590 1 Were you aware at that time that there were 2 ways that 1254 and 1 2 60 were getting into 3 the environment? 4 A: These were the higher chlorinated 5 Aroclors, and they were used in many 6 applications that found their way into 7 trash dumps and other things, other means 8 of disposal, and so, therefore, it would 9 not be possible to contain them as we could 1 0 the lower chlorinated Aroclors that were in 1 1 sealed systems. 1 2 Q: Were you aware of what NCR 1 3 carbonless carbon paper was composed of, 1 4 what Aroclor? 1 5 A: Specifically, I'd have to refresh 1 6 my memory. It was one of the higher ones, 1 7 but whether it was 5 4 or 6 0 , I don't 1 8 remember. 1 9 .Q: Please introduce this as Exhibit 2 0 7 0 9. 2 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 2 709 mark'd for identification). 2 3 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 709 is a three 2 4 page document that purports to be the 2 5 minutes of meeting of the corporate Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042591 i _____________________________________________________________________________ 87 1 development committee, dated November 17, 2 1969. Bates stamp number is Tran 023298, 3 Tran 023300, and Tran 023301. I note that 4 Mr. Throdahl does not appear to be present 5 at this meeting or was not noted to be 6 present, but I would ask you to review this 7 document. I'd like to ask you a question 8 about the general form of the notes. I 9 note here that there is a summation of a 1 0 couple of presentations, one made by E.P. 1 1 Wheeler and another one made by H.S. Bergen 1 2 and J.E. Springgate, and then there is a 1 3 section that's called "Conclusions." What 1 4 do the conclusions reflect? Are they the 1 5 conclusions that the overall management 1 6 committee has come to, or are they the 1 7 conclusions of the presentation? 1 8 A: That was -- as I read this, I 1 9 would interpret it to mean this was the 2 0 conclusions of Bergen and Springgate. 2 1 Q: Please direct your attention to 2 2 the line under "Conclusions" that says "The 2 3 division is instructed to develop a 2 4 program." 2 5 A : Okay. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042592 I _____________________________________________________________________________ 8 8 1 Q: Do you still think that it's the 2 conclusions of Bergen and Springgate, or of 3 the committee? 4 A: Well, that's a good point. Let's 5 see here. This is from their plan of 6 action. They had proposed those 12 items, 7 and apparently they got positive 8 reception. Well, I have to change my 9 answer to you. That conclusion, then, must 1 0 have been the secretary's notes that 1 1 somehow or other wrapped up the 1 2 presentations in question here, and the 13 president and the supporting-'' committee who 1 4 was there must have said please go ahead 1 5 with this and come back to us when you've 1 6 got something to say. The last paragraph 1 7 says that the 12 4 2, which was the one that 1 8 was contained in systems and, thereby, it 1 9 was thought at that point was not as 2 0 serious as the 54 and the 60 that were in 2 1 the uses in carbon paper and plasticizers 2 2 and paints and coatings and so on. But not 2.3 knowing any more than this, this is the 2 4 best recollection Lean come to. 2 5 Q: Turning to point 10, which states Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042593 i 1 "Determine feasibility and cost of 2 eliminating 5/6 chlorine in Aroclors 1242 3 and 1248," did you know at the time that 4 Aroclor 1242 contained a certain percentage 5 of the higher chlorinated biphenyls? 6 MR. PREUSS: He personally? 7 MS . WELCH : Yes. 8 A: I'm sorry. 9 MR. PREUSS: I wanted to make sure 1 0 that she was asking whether you personally 1 1 knew that. 1 2 A : No . 1 3 MS . WELCH: You were not aware o f 1 4 that or you don't recall being aware o f 1 5 that? 1 6 A : No . .1 7 Q : No , you don't recall? 1 8 A : I don't recall. 1 9 Q : Did you review these minutes, even 2 0 though you apparently were not at the 2 1 meeting ? 2 2 A: I probably did. 2 3 Q: Do you recall knowing at the time 2 4 that there was a decision to discontinue 2 5 the manufacture of 1 2 5 4 and 1 2 6 0 and to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042594 90 1 review the status of 1242? 2 A: I don't understand that question 3 now. Did I know what? 4 Q: Did you know that there had been a 5 decision to discontinue the manufacture of 6 1254 and 1260 and to examine the status of 7 1242 ? 8 A: Yes, I v/ould have known' that. 9 Q: Please introduce as Exhibit 710 1 0 the following document. 1 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 2 710 mark'd for identification). 1 3 MS. WELCH; Exhibit 710 purports 1 4 to be a document entitled "PCB presentation 1 5 to Corporate Development Committee, " dated 1 6 November 17, 1969, with the identifying 1 7 stamp Tran 024713 to Tran 024737. 1 8 (Discussion off the record) . 1 9 MS. WELCH: Mr. Throdahl, in the 2 0 ions to the management committee 2 1 was it typical for various written 2 2 materials to be submitted to members 2 3 before? 2 4 A : S ometimes . 2 5 Q: Was it typical for people who made Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042595 __________________________________________________________________________________ 9_1 1 presentations to use charts or slides? 2 A : Usually. 3 Q: Have you ever seen this, what's 4 entitled the PCB presentation to the 5 corporate development committee before? 6 A: Have I ever seen this? I assume I 7 have. You know, I've seen so many over the 8 years that I do not recall this one 9 explicitly. But I'm not surprised. This 1 0 man -- I guess this is Springgate that 1 1 presented this material, although I can't 1 2 tell that so far. I don't know if his name 1 3 is somewhere on the presenter list. 1 4 Q: Please look at the top right-hand 1 5 corner -- or left-hand corner. 1 G A: Well, I see that these must have 1 7 been his notes from which he made the 1 8 presentation. . 1 9 . Q: And please refer to page 2. 2 0 A : Here? 2 1 Q: Page 2 of the previous exhibit 2 2 where it says "Plan of action, H.S. Bergen 2 3 and J.E. Springgate". 2 4 A: Okay. Now, what is your 2 5 question? Did I remember seeing this one? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMONOQ42596 i __________________________________________________________________________________ 9_2 1 Q : Yes. 2 A: I don't remember seeing this one 3 exactly, no.' I must have seen it, but I 4 don't remember. 5 Q: Please turn yourattention to the 6 last full paragraph on the first page and 7 read it to yourself. 8 MR. PREUSS : You mean "Our agenda 9 will be as follows"? 1 0 MS. WELCH: No. The full 1 1 paragraph, "This is a serious matter". 1 2 A : Okay. 1 3 Q: At this point was theAroclor 1 4 business a profitable business for 1 5 Monsanto? 1 6 A: Well, yes. It says gross profits 1 7 of ten million, and a gross profit is - 1 8 it doesn't have overhead costs deducted 1 9 from it, but, yes, the answer is that it 2 0 was profitable. 2 1 Q : Okay. I'd like you to turn to 2 2 what's enumerated as page, looks like 8 or 2 3 9, and the Bates stamp.is Tran 024720. 2 4 Will you please read to yourself -- it . 2 5 says "We considered four alternative Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042597 ^r\ __________________________________________________________________________________9 3 1 courses of action," and goes for three 2 pages. I'd like you to read those three 3 pages to yourself. 4 A: I guess that second page marked 10 5 is just simply a slide that must have been 6 used to augment -- yes, that's where the 7 word slide comes in on the preceding page. 8 Yes, I guess I understand that. 9 Q: Okay. Have you read all three 1 0 pages? 1 1 A: I think I have. 1 2 Q: Do you recall that these four 1 3 alternatives that areenumerated here were 1 4 considered? 1 5 A : Yes. 1 6 Q: Do you recall that pulling out of 1 7 the business entirely was considered? 1 8 A: Well, as one of several 1 9 alt.ernatives, yes. 2 0 Q: The statement made by Mr. 2 1 Springgate here is, "Go out of total 2 2 Aroclor business was considered 2.3 unacceptable from a divisional viewpoint, 2 4 but from a corporate viewpoint may be 2 5 necessary. Only you can make that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042598 ______________________________________________________________________________9_4 1 decision." Do you know if there was 2 anybody on the corporate management 3 committee who thought that from a corporate 4 standpoint that would have been the best 5 thing to do at that point in time? 6 MR. P REUS S : Let me just object 7 here. You say that was a statement by Mr. 8 Springgate, there is no foundation for 9 that. I'll certainly stipulate that it's a 1 0 statement in this document. 1 1 MS. WELCH: Okay. A statement in 1 2 the document, that's fine. The question 1 3 stands. Do you need the question read back 1 4 to you? 1 5 (The requested portion of the 1 6 record read by the reporter) . 1 7 A: At that time, I wouldn't know that 1 8 anyone on the corporate -- it's called the 1 9 corporate development committee here. I 2 0 wouldn't know that some one member of the 2 1 committee believed that alternative was the 2 2 preferred one. What Mr. Springgate is 2 3 doing here is saying that -- he was the 2 4 manager of that product group, I believe, 2 5 at that time, and he's saying we've looked Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042599 __________________________________________________________________________________ 9_5 1 at all the things we can do and there are 2 four things, and he's listed them in some 3 sequence here. That was customary on many 4 issues that the management committee was 5 asked to give counsel on. And, so, whether 6 or not someone already had his mind made up 7 that that was the one, I can't tell you. I 8 don't know. Certainly, he's saying from 9 his view -- remember, that's his business, 1 0 now -- he doesn't believe that's the right 1 1 thing to do, and his alternatives, 4, 1 2 particularly, showed a plan, or a -- yes, 1 3 a set of actions and decisions they would 1 4 take. But he is saying, in effect, you 1 5 people from a corporate point of view might 1 6 want to have some different matter, and it 1 7 turned out that's really what it was. I 1 8 think that here he felt that there were 1 9 customers that were using Aroclors that had 2 0 no other substitute products to use, and it 2 1 would be very natural for him to say in 2 2 good conscience I don't want to leave those 2 3 customers high and dry, especially since 2 4 there are no substitutes. . 2 5 Q: And from his business perspective, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042600 i __________________________________________________________________________________ 9_6 1 he would want to preserve the business as 2 much as possible, is that correct? 3 A : Yes. 4 Q: But that might not -- what he's 5 saying is that might not be in the interest 6 of the corporation? 7 MR. PREUSS: We've got Mr. 8 Springgate's name, there is no foundation 9 that Mr. Springgate wrote this or that it's 1 0 his statement, per se. 1 1 MS. WELCH: I'm not really 1 2 concerned whether it's Mr. Springgate. I'm 1 3 just saying, whoever gave this presentation 1 4 is saying that it might not be in the 1 5 interest of the corporation, would you 1 6 agree with that? 1 7 A : Yes. 1 8 Q: Now, in the earlier document we 1 9 saw that the conclusion was that -- the 2 0 conclusion was discontinue the manufacture 2 1 of Aroclor 1 2 5 4 and 1 2 6 0 and to test the 2 2 status of Aroclor 1242. The recommendation 2 3 of this document is number 4, which is to 2 4 develop specific action plans tailored to 2 5 each business group and each customer Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042601 97 1 market situation? 2 As Well, that's what they've got here 3 in these 12 points, isn't it? 4 Q: But the conclusion is somewhat 5 different. And I'm wondering whether you 6 know whether the conclusion was different 7 than the recommendation and how that 8 conclusion was arrived at? 9 A: Wait a minute. How -1 0 Q: Look at the previous exhibit, 1 1 under the conclusion section. 1 2 A: Well, it would seem to me that 1 3 that refers to alternative 4. 1 4 Q: Look at alternative 3. Would you 1 5 agree with me that the corporate 1 6 development committee adopted alternative 17 3? 1 8 MR. PREUSS: You mean to the 1 9 exclusion of others? 2 0 MS. WELCH: I don't know. 2 1 A: Number 4 is more inclusive. It 2 2 seems to me that that's what this 2 3 conclusion statement says here. 2 4 Q: Please turn to the page that's 2 5 enumerated number 13, I believe, and the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042602 i 98 1 identifying stamp on it is Tran 024724. 2 There is a chart there that talks about the 3 sources of fluids pollution with various 4 applications. Were you aware at the time 5 that industrial fluids had the greatest 6 intensity of pollution, as described here, 7 because it was direct? 8 A: Let's see here. Yes, I'd have to 9 refresh myself on what was included in 1 0 industrial fluids. If those meant fluids 1 1 that were to be used in either devices, 1 2 machinery, or what have you, by others and 1 3 that much of that would be - - would have 1 4 disposal, as those devices or pieces of 1 5 machinery were disposed of, I guess if 1 6 that's what that means, yes, I would 1 7 certainly agree that's probably the way it 1 8 was. 1 9 Q: Okay. Turn to the next page, 2 0 which describes the area of application of 2 1 industrial fluids and see if that refreshes 2 2 your recollection at all about what's 2 3 included in industrial fluids? 2 4 A: Okay. 2 5 Q: Does that add to your Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042603 ______________ ____________________________________________________________________ 9_9 1 understanding at all? 2 As Yes, some. 3 Q : How so? 4 A: What? 5 Q: How so? How does it add to your 6 understanding? 7 A: Well, he's listing three different 8 kinds of substances. One would be a water 9 base glycol, which we wouldn't make. I've 1 0 forgotten what A-200 is. And phosphate 1 1 esters. Phosphate esters were fire 1 2 retardants. I don't know what A-200 is 1 3 here, I'd have to check that out. Someone 1 4 would have to tell me what it is, I've 1 5 forgotten. So, the Pydraul - 3 12, he's 1 6 saying here that they could replace some of 1 7 that with phosphate ester or even water. 1 8 And I guess water came out in many of those 1 9 applications as the fluid in question. 2 0 Customers really didn't like it, but - 2 1 I'm not sure that's the intent of your 2 2 question, but -2 3 Q: That's okay. 2 4 A: The language in alternative 3 and 2 5 alternative 4 requires more study than Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042604 l 10 0 1 these few seconds allow me to do. My 2 recollection is that alternative 4 was the 3 one that was adopted, and that I think the 4 conclusions that Mr. Ehlers wrote had to do 5 with that alternative 4. 6 Q: Okay. Please turn to the page 7 that's enumerated as 17, with the 8 identifying stamp of Tran 024730, and read 9 the first line to yourself. I believe I'll 1 0 read it. I believe it says "Carbonless 1 1 carbon paper, 8.8 million pounds. Major 1 2 Aroclor used, Aroclor 1242." Does that 1 3 refresh your recollection about the type of 1 4 Aroclor that was used in the carbonless 1 5 carbonpaper? 1 6 A: Well, it says so here, so I guess 1 7 it does refresh my memory. 1 8 Q; Did you consider carbonless carbon 1 9 paper an open application or a closed 2 0 application? 2 1 A: I would. 2 2 Q : Consider it what? 2 3 A : Open. 2 4 Q: Please turn to the page enumerated 2 5 as page 23, with Bates stamp Tran 0 2 4 7 3 6. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042605 i _____________________ ________________________________________________________ 10 1 1 Read that to yourself, that page. 2 As What does the program refer to? 3 Q: Well, maybe we need to go back. 4 We need to go back to page 21, maybe start 5 reading from there. Actually, page 20. 6 A : Okay. 7 Q: Do you recall a concern amongst 8 members of the management committee that 9 the program that was being instituted would 1 0 continue to expose Monsanto to adverse 1 1 publicity and possible lawsuits? 1 2 A: Rephrase -- not rephrase it, 1 3 repeat your question, because, are we 1 4 talking now about the sixth item statement 1 5 on page 20 that refers then to the cost and 1 6 the exposure of the corporation to adverse 1 7 publicity if they did these six things? 1 8 Q: Actually, .1 believe, Mr. Throdahl, 1 9 it's 12 things, I believe it continues from 2 0 20 to 21, there is a recommended action 2 1 plan from 20 to 21. 2 2 A: Excuse me. Okay. That's the same 2 3 thing that was referred to in this one. 2 4 Okay. Well, yes, in a sense I'm 2 5 interpreting that second statement there Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042606 __________________________________________________________________________________ 10 2 1 that no matter what we did, there would be 2 some adverse publicity by some group or 3 other. The phaseout which was presented 4 here was intended to see that the key 5 products -- most of the products, 6 remember, that went into this use, most of 7 those were built around a safety issue of 8 the product itself, and this was a part of 9 the customer's product that dealt with 1 0 safety. So, you were comparing the ability 1 1 of that customer to continue to provide 1 2 safe products to his customers versus just 1 3 shutting down and calling up people and 1 4 saying we're out of business. And I think 1 5 that's what this means. This is the 1 6 sentence, "Expose us to continued adverse 1 7 publicity," even if we did all these things 1 8 we'd still have adverse publicity, that's 1 9 what it says. 2 0 Q: Well, do you recall what the 2 1 consideration was with possible lawsuits? 2 2 A: I don't know. Remembering the 2 3 time and remembering the people that are 2 4 doing this, and remembering that product 2 5 litigation had not reached its crescendo Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 ' HARTOLDMON0042607 g __________________________________________________________________________________10 3 1 that it has now, I guess they're simply 2 saying that's a possibility. I can't 3 answer it beyond that. 4 Q: How does the use of Aroclors in 5 carbonless carbon paper contribute to 6 safety, according to you? 7 A: I suspect that's a good point, 8 that it contributes less to safety than it 9 did to either the clarity or the 1 0 effectiveness of the copy paper that was 1 1 -- that contained that. It was one of 1 2 these other multi-use kinds of things that 1 3 went on. You could say the same thing for 1 4 painting the interiors of rooms or 1 5 equipment that was subjected to the 1 6 weather. These were just good adjuvants to 1 7 a mixture in a whole host of things. So I 1 8 think that alternate 4 may have -- this is 1 9 very explicit and very confusing, and it 2 0 will take a lot more study than I've made 2 1 in the few seconds I've been permitted to 2 2 see this stuff to bring back 25 years of 2 3 time. 2 4 Q: Turning once' more to the page 2 5 that's enumerated as page 9, although Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042608 i __________________________________________________________________________________ 10 4 1 that's crossed out. Tran 0 2 4 7 2 0 is the 2 number on the bottom. Looking at 3 alternative 2, which is "Go out of total 4 Aroclor business was considered 5 unacceptable from a divisional viewpoint." 6 Please read that whole paragraph to 7 yourself, again. 8 A : Okay. 9 Q: Would you agree with the statement 10 that's made in this document that not only 1 1 is there too much customer market need, but 1 2 there is too much Monsanto profit to go out 1 3 of the business at that point in time? 1 4 MR. PREUSS: Well, I think you're 1 5 not reading that entire sentence. 1 6 MS. WELCH: I'll be glad to read .1 7 the entire sentence. "All Aroclor products 1 8 are not serious pollutants - many degrade; 1 9 there is to much customer/market need and 2 0 selfishly too much Monsanto profit to go 2 1 out." I'll read the next sentence. "To go 2 2 out would require a writeoff of Aroclor net 2 3 investment of 7 million, 10 cents per 2 4 share, or if biphenyl included, 8.8 2 5 million, 12 cents per share. In addition, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042609 __________________________________________________________________________________ 10 5 1 inventory disposition, continuing cost of 2 utilities, and backup capital and serious 3 manpower and resources reallocation at 4 Anniston." Would you agree with that 5 statement? 6 MR. PREUSS: Does he agree with it 7 now or - 8 MS. WELCH: No. Did you agree 9 with that as of 1969, November 1969? 1 0 A: Well, ultimately we agreed to 1 1 forego that. 1 2 Q: As of November 1969, did you agree 1 3 with that statement? 1 4 A: I don't think that within the 1 5 spirit of your question -- this ' 1 6 presentation at this point said there are 1 7 four things we can do, and you're asking me 1 8 to say did I agree with that one. I don't 1 9 remember that I agreed with anything at 2 0 that point. I think we were all trying to 2 1 think about it. And when we came to the 2 2 final conclusion we all recommended, all of 2 3 us on that committee recommended that we 2 4 had to forego the profits that would be so 2 5 indicated here by the guy whose job was at Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042610 i ______________________________________________________________________________ 10 6 1 stake. And he was taking a very parochial 2 view. But he admitt.ed in a sentence ahead 3 of that only you can make that decision, 4 from the corporate viewpoint. 5 Q : Ultimately, the CMC or the 6 management committee decided that despite 7 divisional interests it had to forego the 8 profit? 9 A: That's right. 1 0 Q : That was not decided in November 11 19 69? 1 2 A: I think that's right. 1 3 Q : That it was not decided, that it 1 4 was decided not to go out of the business? 1 5 A : Well - 1 6 MR. PREUSS : You mean -- I'm going 1 7 to object to the form of the question. Are 1 8 you talking about.all products, specific 1 9 products, or what are you talking about? 2 0 MS. WELCH: Going out of the 2 1 Aroclor business, which is alternative 2 2 number 2 . 2 3 MR. PREUSS: Entirely? 2 4 MS. WELCH: Yes. Because of the 2 5 reasons that are described here. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042611 * __________________________________________________________________________________ 10 7 1 A: I don't know that this was a flex 2 point in the decision-making, because I 3 believe it was a year later, sometime in 4 1 9 7 0, that would be months -- November 5 '69. Well, it's less than a year later. I 6 know that the attitude of the committee 7 members was such that at this point we were 8 deadly serious about it, we realized what 9 we were doing to chop out this kind of 1 0 profit that was coming in. And these 1 1 numbers don't look very big today, but they 1 2 did then. And for you to ask me did I like 1 3 this one, I can't answer that. 1 4 Q: No, I'm not asking whether you 1 5 liked the alternative. I'm asking whether 1 6 you agree with the statement that the 1 7 decision, obviously, was not made in 1 8 November 1969 to go out of the business and 1 9 whether you agree with the reasons that are 2 0 given here in alternative 2 why it would be 2 1 a bad idea to go out of the business as of 2 2 N ovemb e r 1 9 6 9 ? 2 3 MR. PREUSS: I'm going to object 2 4 to the characterization. You said the 2 5 decision, obviously, was made not to go out Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042612 ______________________________________________________________________________10 8 1 of the business. It's argumentative, and 2 it assumes facts not in evidence. 3 A: We ultimately made the decision to 4 go out, so, therefore, you must have the 5 answer. 6 MS. WELCH : You ultimately did. 7 But in November 1 9 6 9 would you agree that 8 the product was still being sold in various 9 appl ications? 1 0 MR. PREUSS t I'm going to object 1 1 to the form of the question, because you're 1 2 saying all products. Are you talking about 1 3 some products, other uses? As you know, 1 4 there was a variation as to what type of 1 5 products, what type of uses that went over 1 6 a period of time until all of them were 1 7 phased out. 1 8 MS. WELCH: Okay. Let's examine 1 9 the.previous exhibit that states the 2 0 conclusions are that -- we should plan to 2 1 discontinue the manufacture of Aroclors 2 2 1254 and 1260 and the division is 2.3 instructed to develop a program to 2 4 discontinue these products and report this 2 5 to the committee. And then it goes on to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042613 _______________________________________________________________ ___________________10 9 1 say the status of Aroclor 1242 should 2 continue to be tested to determine whether 3 it contributes to this problem. So, would 4 you agree with me that at this point in 5 time in November 1 9 6 9 that the decision was 6 made to discontinue the manufacture of 1254 7 and 1 2 6 0 and to examine Aroclor 12 42 ? 8 A: That seems to be the right - 9 yes, that seems to be the answer. 1 0 Q: Would you also agree with me that 1 1 .the products that did not contain 1254 and 1 2 1260 were continued to be manufactured and 1 3 sold at this point in time, November 1 9 6 9 ? 1 4 MR. PREUSS: Well, again, you 1 5 ignored a whole section of this thing, the 1 6 12 step program that they talk about what's .1 7 going to go on during the process. 1 8 MS. WELCH: There is no mention 1 9 here of discontinuing anything other than 2 0 12 5 4 and 1 2 6 0 in terms of the sale of 2 1 products . 2 2 MR. PREUSS: That's all the 2 3 document says, is that what you're saying? 2 4 MS. WELCH: I'm asking for his 2 5 recollection of whether there was a Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042614 i __________________________________________________________________________________ 110 1 continuing sale of products other than 2 those that contained 1254 and 1260? 3 A: You're asking me a question of the 4 specificity that for me to give an answer 5 is just not possible, unless I saw more 6 documentation and thought about this. 7 Because over time I cannot remember the 8 intricacies and the sequence of the 9 thinking in the way that you want it. I'm 1 0 sorry. 1 1 MS. WELCH: Turning again to 1 2 alternative 2 on page 8, the paragraph that 1 3 talks about the concerns about Monsanto's 1 4 profits, would you agree that that was a 1 5 factor that went into the consideration in 1 6 November 1 96 9 about the program, the PCB 1 7 program? 1 8 A: A factor to whom? The committee? 1 9 Q: To the committee? 2 0 A: Well, you asked me that before. 2 1 Q: Well, I don't know that I've 2 2 gotten an answer. 2 3 A: Pleaseread it back again. I'm 2 4 confused as to what she wants. . 2 5 (The requested portion of the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042615 111 1 record read by the reporter). 2 A; My recollection is that the 3 concern for specific profits occupied 4 materially the division management's 5 attitude, and properly so. At no time 6 other than to refresh the memory of the 7 committee on what those profits were and 8 the volume sold and the uses to which they 9 were sold into, I do not recall that the 1 0 economics of this issue was ever a serious 1 1 factor to anybody on that committee. How's 1 2 that? 1 3 Q: If that's your answer, that's 1 4 fine. That answers the question. 1 5 A : Okay. 1 6 MS. WELCH: Why don't we take a 1 7 lunch break. 1 8 (Noon Recess) . 1 9 MS. WELCH: I'd like to introduce 2 0 as Exhibit 711 the following document. 2 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 2 711 mark'd for identification) . 2 3 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 711 purports 2 4 to be minutes of a meeting of the corporate 2 5 management committee, dated April 20, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042616 i __________________________________________________________________________________ 112 1 1970. There are a number of identifying 2 stamps, I'm going to use the one of BIR 3 002086 to BIR 002087. Please take a few 4 minutes to review this document. 5 A; Is there supposed to be a page 6 missing here? 7 Q: This is the way the document was 8 produced to us. 9 A: Okay. 1 0 Q: You were present at this meeting 1 1 of the corporate management committee? 1 2 A: It indicates that I was. I think 1 3 that this is -- while the details of what 1 4 are here are refreshing me, I do recall 1 5 these kinds of discussions that we had. 1 6 Q: Turning to the first page where 1 7 the statement is made, "Total Aroclor 1 8 business represents 21 million in sales 1 9 returning 10 million gross profit on 13 2 0 million gross investment." Does that 2 1 represent a profitable business at that 2 2 point in time? 2 3 A: Sure. 2 4 Q: Turning to the second page, the 2 5 statement is made, "Substitute products are Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042617 113 1 being developed to replace the 2 non-degradable Aroclors." In your capacity 3 as vice-president of technology, were you 4 involved in the development of replacement 5 products for the Aroclors? 6 A: I wasn't involved in terms of 7 hands-on involvement. I certainly was 8 involved from the conceptual and the 9 oversight, overall point of view. I made 1 0 it my business to believe that the maximum 1 1 and the optimum resources were being 1 2 applied to do something like this. When 1 3 you see a word like crash program, that 1 4 didn't mean that everything else was 1 5 dropped to do this, but crash would mean 1 6 several times the normal of effort would 1 7 have been in place, and it was my job to 1 8 see that that did, indeed, occur, and the 1 9 kinds of people that are being assigned 2 0 were competent, the caliber of the Farrars 2 1 and the Kellers and others. And, you know, 2 2 this took on a high priority. That's what 2 3 t ha t means, yes. 2 4 Q: The crash program refers to 2 5 replacement of an NCR application? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042618 __________________________________________________________________________________ 114 1 M A: That's right. 2 Q: Do you know why there was a 3 so-called crash program for the development 4 of an NCR application? 5 A: They were a good customer, and 6 they liked the use of the Aroclor they had 7 been using very much, because it gave them 8 a superior product, and so it was -- that 9 was probably more than most a thing that if 1 0 you could work out some way that the 1 1 customer could be -- through his loss of 1 2 your product being replaced by something 1 3 you have done for him, that's just good 1 4 business. 1 5 Q: Do you recall if the NCR Aroclor 1 6 product was being withdrawn because of 1 7 concerns of persistence in the environment 1 8 at this point? 1 9 A : Oh, sure. 2 0 Q: Referring back to the development 2 1 of replacement products, do you know 2 2 whether replacement products were being 2 3 developed, as it says here, to replace all 2 4 of the -- it doesn't say here, but.do you 2 5 know if the replacement products were being Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042619 __________________________________________________________________________________ 115 1 developed to replace all of the 2 non-degradab1e Aroclors? 3 A: Well, ideally, I expect the goal 4 was to replace as many of the applications 5 that 5 4, 6 0 -- and what was the other one 6 here? 1 2 5 4 and 1 2 6 0. Sure, the goal would 7 have been to replace as many of those uses 8 as possible. 9 Q: How about the 1242 uses? 1 0 A: I imagine the same applied to that 1 1 product. But, again, these are just general 1 2 comments that, as I recall, you enjoyed 1 3 those business relationships, so you would 1 4 try your darnedest to see if you couldn't 1 5 replace them with products of your 1 6 manufacture. That would only be normal. 1 7 Q: Was there some attempt to develop 1 8 a replacement before a product would be 1 9 withdrawn from the market? 2 0 A: Well, you could see from those 12 2 1 steps in one of those earlier exhibits, 2 2 insofar as the calendar dictated, that we 2 3 had a year or some months or whatever, I 2 4 suspect that that was a driving force that 2 5 we would try to do it while we still could Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042620 116 1 phase out in the normal way. There was 2 still no human toxicity that was ever at 3 issue here, as far as I can recall. So, 4 remember, at this time these findings 5 weren't all that elegant in the sense of 6 -- there were a lot more unknowns than 7 there were knowns, and the stepup of 8 concentration of activity reflected our 9 concern to get up to speed on it just as 1 0 fast as we could. But to go out of the 1 1 business and then hope you could find 1 2 another replacement would be less desirable 1 3 than to see could you possibly phase this 1 4 out. 1 5 Q: Phase it out and have a 1 6 replacement ready before there was no 1 7 product on the market? 1 8 A: Hopefully, yes. 1 9 Q: Turning to the conclusions, the 2 0 statement is made, "The committee felt that 2 1 while the division has taken major steps to 2 2 resolve this problem, more affirmative 2 3 action must be taken. A replacement 2 4 product should be developed on a crash 2 5 basis for the NCR application." Was there Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042621 __________________________________________________________________________________ 117 1 some dissatisfaction on the part of the 2 management committee with the division in 3 terms of the rate of progress of dealing 4 with this problem? 5 A: Dissatisfaction is probably too 6 strong a word. Disappointment, maybe. 7 Q: What was the disappointment? 8 A; That they hadn't found a 9 replacement. 1 0 Q: Was this for the NCR paper 1 1 application? 1 2 A: Yes. 1 3 Q: Wasthere any other disappointment 1 4 with the progress? 1 5 A: No. No. No. I'm not giving you 1 6 the message. Either the division was more 1 7 optimistic that they could have had a 1 8 replacement or it was more difficult than 1 9 they had anticipated. At any rate, it was 2 0 a disappointment that the problem hadn't 2 1 been resolved with the proposed plan, and, 2 2 so, what the committee's recommendation 2 3 here was is to step it up. 2 4 Q: With reference to the replacement 2 5 for NCR? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042622 __________________________________________________________________________________ 118 1 A : Yes . 2 Q: Was there a recommendation that 3 the division step up anything else? 4 A: I don't know. From this, I can't 5 tell. 6 Q: Turning to the last paragraph, it 7 says "Messrs. Eck, Putzell and Gillis are 8 to recommend actions to demonstrate the 9 affirmative program being taken." Do you 1 0 know of any recommendations that were made 1 1 by any of these gentlemen to demonstrate 1 2 the affirmative program had been taken? 1 3 A: Well, Mr. Eck was responsible for 1 4 manufacturing. He was V.P. for 1 5 manufacturing, as I was for technology. 1 6 Putzell, you knew who he was and Gillis was 1 7 vice-president for marketing. And, so, why 1 8 they got those three and I'm eliminated 1 9 here -- I guess I was glad to see that I 2 0 was. But I just feel that they would act 2 1 in their oversight capacity. I don't 2 2 believe that they actually sat down and 2 3 developed an affirmative action program as 2 4 individuals. .1 don't believe they did 2 5 that. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMONOQ426 .ft __________________________________________________________________________________ 119 1 Q : So, you have no knowledge of any 2 affirmative action that was proposed beyond 3 what's memorialized here? 4 A: Well, there was an affirmative 5 action -- there was an affirmative program 6 undertaken, but it would have been reported 7 by the division in question, and the inputs 8 of Eck, Putzell and Gillis may or may not 9 have been noted. But I can't make that 1 0 translation for you here. I don't have the 1 1 evidence to do that. See, this is dated 1 2 April '70. 1 3 Q : April 11, 1 9 7 0, I believe. 1 4 A : This one is 2 0. 1 5 Q : April 20, 1 9 7 0, that's correct. 1 6 A : Okay. This was -- this date was 1 7 November 17, '69. 1 8 Q: And you're referring to the 1 9 earlier report? 2 0 MR. PREDSS : No, he's referring to 2 1 the development committee presentation. 2 2 A: We're looking here at December, 2 3 January, February, March, April -- well, 2 4 five months. I'm reading affirmative 2 5 action in today's terminology of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042624 I 12 0 1 affirmative action. I think what all this 2 means is that when the division reported 3 what they had been doing -- and you see the 4 people who are listed here, Minckler, he 5 was general manager; Mason, he was 6 assistant general manager; Smith, the same 7 -- Smith, I think, was manufacturing, 8 Papageorge, Bergen, Springgate and so on, 9 those were the guys that were, you know, 1 0 supervising all this stuff. So, I think 1 1 this is a result of the committee listening 1 2 and saying gee, this isn't going fast 1 3 enough to suit what we really believe, so, 1 4 come and tell us how you can even do 1 5 better. That's the way I read it now. 1 6 Q: Okay. Please introduce this as 1 7 Exhibit 712. 1 8 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 9 712 mark'd for identification). 2 0 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 712 is a 2 1 multi-page document entitled "Outline-CMC 2 2 presentation, PCB environmental problem," 2 3 with a number of identifying stamps. I'm 2 4 going to use the one of 0 0 0 1 5 2 9 to 2 5 0001538. Mr. Throdahl, I'd appreciate it Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042625 -.n I __________________________________________________________________________________ 12 1 1 if you'd take a few minutes to review this 2 document. . 3 A : Okay. 4 Q: In reviewing this document, does 5 this sound like any information that you 6 heard at the management committee meeting 7 on April 20, 1970? 8 A: Well, I'm sure there is a lot of 9 similarity here. But I don't know who this 1 0 is from. Incidentally, one page is 1 1 entirely blank. Is that supposed to be? 1 2 Q: That's the way the document was 1 3 produced to us. 1 4 A : Okay. 1 5 Q: Do you recall who made the major 1 6 presentation, if anybody, at the April 20th 1 7 meeting? 1 8 A: Not from this. But I would guess 1 9 Springgate might have been the fellow that 2 0 would have done it. But I can't tell that. 2 1 Q: Was Mr. Papageorge making 2 2 presentations to the corporate management 2 3 committee at this point? 2 4 A : We 11 - - 2 5 MR. PREUSS: At what point? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042626 12 2 1 MS. WELCH: April 2 0 , 1 9 7 0. 2 A: I don't know. I can't remember. 3 But it wouldn't make any difference whether 4 Minckler was speaking, Springgate or 5 Papageorge, they would be -- this would 6 have been their agreed upon position 7 statement. So, from that point of view, 8 there is an awful lot of stuff in here. 9 Q: Well, I have a few particular 1 0 questions. The page that's enumerated 1 1 0001531, there is a reference in the second 1 2 paragraph to the need for modifying our 1 3 strategy. And there is, similarly, a 1 4 reference on page 0 0 0 1 5 3 8 to a change in 1 5 our strategy regarding discontinuing the 1 6 manufacture of Aroclors 1254 and 1260. Do 1 7 you see what I'm referring to? 1 8 A : Yes. 1 9 Q: My question to you is, do you 2 0 recall the proposal to change the strategy 2 1 as reflected in this document? 2 2 A: With no more evidence to me so 2 3 that I could see it, it sounds reasonable, 2 4 but I do not remember the -- this explicit 2 5 -- I'm sorry, this explicit meeting on Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042627 I __________________________________________________________________________________12 3 1 this explicit date. This has become fuzzy 2 to me in terms of what was changed. I just 3 simply don't remember. 4 Q; Do you know if Aroclor 12 5 4 and 5 12 6 0 was used at the time in transformer 6 capacitor applications? 7 A: There may have been some use of 8 those, I'm not -- I cannot recall 9 specifically. 1 0 Q: In referring to the document that 1 1 we're looking at, page 0001533, the last 1 2 paragraph, "During our meeting with" blank 1 3 "representatives in late January, we 1 4 discussed our decision to discontinue the 1 5 manufacture of Aroclor 1254 and 1260," et 1 6 cetera. Please read that to yourself. 1 7 A: Yes. What is your question? 1 8 Q: My question is, does that refresh 1 9 your recollection about any suggested 2 0 modification in strategy with respect to 2 1 the manufacture of 1254 and 1260? 2 2 A: No. I assume the blank there is 2 3 some customer, but that customer is 2 4 outraged, of course, that we're doing this 2 5 to him. So, that's all that means to me. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042628 12 4 1 This is obviously some kind of an 2 electrical customer, but I'm not -- I'm 3 not knowledgeable as to who that might have 4 been or, indeed -- they talk about power 5 blackouts, and so that's obviously got to 6 be some kind of an electrical application, 7 either in transformers or capacitors or 8 something. 9 Q: Okay. Could you please turn to 1 0 the prior exhibit for a moment, the minutes 1 1 of the April 20th meeting, and turn to the 1 2 second page of that document. It states 1 3 "Sales will be continued for transformers, 1 4 capacitors and heat transfer units which 1 5 are closed systems or sealed units' and 1 6 which permit reclamation or other 1 7 material." Does that at all 1 8 refresh your recollection about change in 1 9 strategy or modification of strategy with 2 0 respect to 1 2 5 4 and 1 2 6 0 ? 2 1 A: The paragraph you were reading 2 2 from there on the April 20th meeting is 2 3 paragraph 3, is that right? 2 4 Q: The paragraph that begins with 2 5 "Sales will be continued." It's further Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042629 12 5 1 down. 2 A : Sorry, I was. reading the wrong 3 paragraph. And you're asking me to match 4 this paragraph with this statement? 5 Q: I'm asking if that refreshes your 6 recollection. 7 MR. P REUS S : About the decision 8 with respect to 1254 and 1260? 9 MS. WELCH: That's right. About 1 0 any modification of strategy that was 1 1 suggested. . 1 2 A: No, I'm afraid it doesn't. But 1 3 this is just due to the ignorance caused by 1 4 time. 1 5 Q: Please turn to 0001536 in the 1 6 document we're looking at now. The middle 1 7 paragraph states, "If successful, complete 1 8 conversion from Aroclor 1242 should be 1 9 possible within a year to 18 months." Do 2 0 you recall that there was a view of phasing 2 1 out Aroclor 12 4 2 within a year to 18 months 2 2 from that date? 2 3 MR. PREUSS: Well, I'm going to 2 4 object as mischaracterizing what this 2 5 paragraph is. Again, there is a blank Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042630 i __________________________________________________________________________________ 12 6 1 before the word applications, and if I were 2 to interpret it, it's related to a specific 3 customer. 4 A: Taking that sentence out of 5 context, I can't react to it. 6 MS. WELCH: Okay. Let's look at 7 the next page, which is the schedule for 8 discontinuing Aroclor applications. Do you 9 have any further recollection than what's 1 0 stated in this document about the schedule 1 1 for discontinuing Aroclor applications as 1 2 far as hydraulic fluids is concerned? 1 3 A: I don't. Your question was, do I 1 4 have recollection? 1 5 Q : Yes. 1 6 A: No, I don't. 1 7 Q: Do you recall if it was your 1 8 expectation as of April 2 0, 1 9 7 0 that all 1 9 hydraulic applications would be 2 0 discontinued by the end of 1 9 7 0 ? 2 1 A: I don't recall. 2 2 Q: This is Exhibit 713. 2 3 {Deposition Exhibit' Number 2 4 713 mark'd for identification) . 2 5 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 713 is a one Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042631 12 7 1 page document which purports to be the 2 minutes of meeting of the corporate 3 management committee, dated May 11, 1970, 4 with a barely legible identifying stamp of 5 61002, could be a 988. Please take a 6 moment to review this. 7 A : Okay. 8 Q: I note here that this corporate 9 management committee meeting is held just a 1 0 few weeks after the April 20th meeting. Do 1 1 you know whether this meeting was held to 1 2 basically increase the affirmative action 1 3 that was called for at the last meeting? 1 4 A: I don't know that that was 1 5 explicitly the purpose of that meeting. If 1 6 I knew that May 11 was a Monday, I would 1 7 suspect that it was a regular stated date 1 8 for the committee to meet, and I would 1 9 assume that somehow there was a bring-up 2 0 from the secretary that said we'll hear 2 1 from the organic division on PCBs. And 2 2 that's about all I could make from this. 2 3 It was just a way of making a progress 2 4 report. So, these last -- the last 2 5. sentence is a pretty cryptic one, and it Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON00426: 12 8 1 says, you know, get off the stick, get on 2 with i t . . 3 Q: Are you referring to the sentence 4 which says "The committee asked that there 5 be no delay with reference to the action 6 taken" - 7 A : Yes. 8 Q: -- "to achieve the above plans 9 without CMC approval"? 1 0 A: Yes. They're saying don't change 1 1 it unless we agree with it. 1 2 Q: Is that an unusual - 1 3 A: That's very unusual. 1 4 Q: So, is it your opinion that at 1 5 this point there was a state of concern on 1 6 the part of the corporate management 1 7 committee that these plans be undertaken 1 8 with all due speed? 1 9 A: Wait a minute. You said plans be 2 0 undertaken. They had been undertaken, they 2 1 were in full swing. This was -- again, 2 2 I'm just reflecting, but as I see this now, 2 3 I think the management committee and the 2 4 -- through its chair, the president, is 2 5 saying look, let nothing stand in the way Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042633 i __________________________________________________________________________________ 12 9 1 of getting these results, we want to see 2 this over and done with. There 'was no 3 insubordination intended by the division on 4 this point, this was a very difficult set 5 of problems. And I think here is the 6 senior management of the corporation saying 7 look, we made our decision, and you gave us 8 your plan, and we approved it, and we don't 9 want anything to get in the way of it. 1 0 Q: Have you ever heard -- before this 1 1 case had you ever heard of the application 1 2 of Turbinol 153 or the product Turbinol 1 3 15 3? 1 4 A: I knew the name Turbinol, but 1 5 whether it was -- those numbers were very 1 6 esoteric, almost jargon, and to someone 1 7 like me who was trying to get a gross 1 8 picture of hundreds of products -- Turbinol 1 9 might have been something that was a name 2 0 created for a specific customer, I don't 2 1 remember that. But there were all kinds of 2 2 things like this done. So, I'd have to say 2 3 no, I don't remember the specific product 2 4 Turbinol 153. I just wouldn't know.it by 2 5 that name. Wouldn't have known it then, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042634 1 probably. 13 0 2 Q: Turning to the third bullet point 3 here, it states "Replace all 4 non-biodegradab1e chlorinated biphenyls in 5 hydraulic applications." There is a 6 statement that it will be completed one 7 hundred percent by December 30, 1970. Is 8 that your recollection, that that's the 9 expectation? 1 0 A: If it says it here, I must have 1 1 agreed with it. In the sense that yes, 1 2 they thought they could do it by that time. 1 3 Q: And would that involve the 1 4 development of replacement products? 1 5 A: Sure. 1 6 Q: And if there were to be any 1 7 exceptions to this rule of completing 1 8 replacements it would have to come before 1 9 the corporate management committee, is that 2 0 correct? 2 1 A: That's what this says. 2 2 Q: And that would go for any 2 3 particular product, is that correct, that 2 4 fits within that category? 2 5 MR. PREUSS: The hydraulic Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042635 I - __________________________________________________________________________________ 13 1 1 applications? 2 MS . WELCH: Y e s . 3 A; I would assume so. 4 Qs As far as you knew, did these six 5 bullet points, I'm referring to the dashes, 6 include all the applications of Aroclors 7 that you knew about, was that the intention 8 of the corporate management committee? 9 A: It was pretty inclusive. I can't 1 0 really say that it was all. But there is 1 1 nothing in here -- memory doesn't help me 12 here. Most of these had to do with 1 3 electrical and hydraulic applications that 1 4 had to do with fire safety. There were 1 5 other uses for Aroclors which probably 1 6 weren't all that inclusive and they may or 1 7 may not have been a part of this. I'm sure 1 8 that -- I'm sure there is some records 1 9 around that would help me, or somebody's 2 0 memory, but right now I couldn't give that 2 1 to you. I just don't know. 2 2 Q: Well, let me put it this way, as 2 3 of May 1 9 7 0, was it the- intention of the 2 4 corporate management committee to develop 2 5 with the division a plan to get out of the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042636 13 2 1 Aroclor business as a whole? 2 A: Well, I'm sure that's what all 3 these pieces of paper lead to. 4 Q: So, you would want every 5 particular product which included Aroclors 6 to be included in any plan? 7 MR. P REUS S : Well, I object to the 8 form of the question, "You would want." 9 Are you asking him did he consider that as 1 0 an individual or did the corporation 1 1 consider it as part of the CMC or what? 1 2 MS. WELCH: Well, he's a member of 1 3 the CMC. Was that his understanding, that 1 4 the division was presenting a comprehensive 1 5 plan for withdrawing from the business of 1 6 Aroclors? 1 7 A: I can not answer your question was 1 8 something omitted. I can't do that. I 1 9 don't know. 2 0 Q: Well, you don't know whether it 2 1 was omitted, but from your perspective was 2 2 it your expectation that all of the 2 3 Aroclors would be included in this 2 4 withdrawal plan? 2 5 A: That's right. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042637 13 3 1 Qs Please introduce this as Exhibit 2 7 14. 3 ( Deposition Exhibit Number 4 714 mark'd for identification) . 5 MS. WELCH: Exhibi t 7 14 is a two 6 page document that purports to be a 7 memorandum from H.S. Bergen to W.B. 8 Papageorge, dated May 11, 1970, with the 9 identifying stamp of Tran 085305 to Tran 1 0 085306. Please take a minute to review the 1 1 first page of this document. 1 2 A : Okay. 1 3 Q: To the best of your recollection, 1 4 did you have a sense at the May 11, 1970 1 5 meeting that there was some apprehension on 1 6 the part of the division that was 1 7 responsible for Aroclors that the CMC 1 8 would, quote, put them out of business? 1 9 A: You're referring to that third 2 0 paragraph ? - 2 1 Q : Yes. 2 2 A : I don't understand that 2 3 Q : Well, I 'm not asking for 2 4 understanding of the sentence, I'm asking 2 5 for your recollection of the May 11th Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042638 l __________________________________________________________________________________ 13 4 1 meeting, about whether you sensed any 2 concern from any members of the division 3 responsible for Aroclors that unless they 4 came up with a responsible plan they would 5 be, quote, put out of business, unquote? 6 MR. PREUSS: Again, I object to 7 the form of the question. You're assuming 8 that there wasn't a plan. 9 A: There was a plan. Okay. And I 1 0 thought that the language -- the 1 1 conclusion language was quite clear. This 1 2 letter, this memo here has to do with 1 3 Europe. About the sentence they will not 1 4 -- we are encouraged they will not put us 1 5 out of business, that sentence doesn't make 1 6 any sense in terms of what I'm seeing 1 7 here. They could not have mistaken the way 1 8 the decision was made -- I'm sorry, they 1 9 could not have mistaken the seriousness of 2 0 the president's message to them as being 2 1 ameliorated in any way with that May 11th 2 2 meeting, and from I recall from those 2 3 words. And, so, this sentence, to me, is 2 4 perhaps a lament by this man Bergen., and 2 5 that's the best that I can say to you. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042639 13 5 1 This was certainly -- by the time this 2 date had come around, the management people 3 were anxious and biting the bullet -- now 4 that they've bitten the bullet, to get on 5 with it and carry out the program of 6 discontinuance, and anything else they just 7 wouldn't accept. So, I can't explain that 8 sentence at all. 9 Q: All right. Please introduce this 1 0 as Exhibit 715. 1 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 2 715 mark'd for identification) . 1 3 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 715 is a 1 4 multi-page document with a cover letter 1 5 which states that it's copies of charts 1 6 that were used in the presentation to the 1 7 CMC this morning. It's from John Mason to 1 8 Mr. Bergen and Mr. Springgate. And a 1 9 number of identifying stamps, I will use 2 0 300 0540 to 300 0563. I ask you to take a 2 1 few minutes to review this document. Do 2 2 you remember if John Mason made the 2 3 presentation at the May 1 1, 1 9 7 0 CMC 2 4 meeting? 2 5 A: Well, he says he did. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042640 __________________________________________________________________________________ 13 6 1 Q: Do you recall seeing any of the 2 charts which are identified, or contained 3 in this document? 4 A: I don't. I don't recall 5 explicitly these charts. I'm surprised he 6 would use chromatography graphs to the 7 group in the CMC, because they're 8 understandable only to the people that have 9 done them. But, no, I would suspect John 1 0 did. Obviously, you know, he's British, 1 1 the way he writes. So, yes, he was 1 2 present, so he must have done the 1 3 presentation. 1 4 Q: And what was his position at this 1 5 time? 1 6 A: Well, I think he was assistant 1 7 general manager of the division. But I 1 8 have to guess at that, because Mason was a 1 9 British employee, meaning he was with our 2 0 British subsidiary, and he was brought to 2 1 the States for a few years to see how 2 2 things happened at headquarters. And he 2 3 was given a number of m'eaningful 2 4 assignments, and this was one of them that 2 5 he was on then. So, his precise title, I'm Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042641 13 7 1 sorry, I just don't recall after this 2 length of time. But. he was in a real role, 3 he wasn't there just to observe and follow 4 somebody else. So, since he had come out 5 of the European community, he's writing 6 this to Bergen and Springgate, because a 7 lot of this had to do with what they were 8 going to do in Europe as well as here. I'm 9 notsure that answers your question. 1 0 Q: That's fine. Turning to the page 1 1 that's nearly illegible, but it says 300 1 2 0546, its headline is "Biodegradation". 1 3 A : Yes. 1 4 Q: There is a statement number 3 1 5 which says, "Critical product is 1242, 1 6 contains some 50 isomers - good response on 1 7 2, 3 and some 4 chlorine isomers." Do you 1 8 recall a particular concern that you had at 1 9 the time about 1242? 2 0 A: In what respect? 2 1 Q: With regard to biodegradation. 2 2 A; Well, do you understand what this 2 3 means? That there are other isomers 2 4 present. ' 2 5 Q: Well, I'd like your Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042642 l 13 8 1 understanding. I mean, I have my 2 understanding, but if you could help me 3 with that understanding, I'd appreciate 4 it . 5 As An isomer is a chemical of the 6 same molecular weight, but with different 7 molecular configuration. And with aromatic 8 compounds like biphenyl, where you 9 chlorinate it on certain parts of the ring, 1 0 you can get 50 of those. Okay. Like 1 1 dioxin has 72 isomers. So there were 50 1 2 isomers of this, and that comes about 1 3 because in the chlorination of biphenyl 1 4 some of it -- some of the chlorine goes on 1 5 and they make some products that are 1 6 heavier in molecular weight, those are 1 7 removed by distillation, usually. Those 1 8 other isomers, I guess, represent this is 1 9 one of these products that is difficult to 2 0 make absolutely pure to only one isomer. 2 1 And I guess what he's saying here is that 2 2 this one is critical, because with those 50 2 3 isomers it means that if they've got to 2 4 narrow those down to, say, four or five, 2 5 they've got to go through tremendous Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042643 i 13 9 1 purifying procedures which are extremely 2 costly and probably wouldn't, from the 3 point of view of the customer, make his 4 product any better for his use. It might 5 be -- it would be better for environmental 6 persistence. Is that m a king sense? 7 Q : Yes. 8 A s 0kay . 9 Q: Turning to the page that's 1 0 enumerated 300 0563, the profitability 1 1 forecast. 1 2 A: 0 5 6 3. This is way in the back? 1 3 Q: It is way in the back. It's the 1 4 next to last page, last printed page. 1 5 A : Okay. 1 6 Q: There is a statement at the bottom 1 7 that the gross investment for the existing 1 8 business is 25.4 million, Aroclors and new 1 9 products would be 29 million. Do you 2 0 recall why the increase in the gross 2 1 investment? 2 2 A: Oh, this first column says 2 3 existing Aroclor business. Now, if they 2 4 add new products to that gross investment 2 5 number, which would be about 3.6 million, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042644 14 0 1 that's why that number is 29. I'm making a 2 -- I'd say here that we're taking all of 3 the 25.4 and then saying what do we have 4 for new products. Those new products are 5 actually going to be somewhat diminished, 6 because we're only showing 20 million of 7 sales, and I'm assuming that this is the 8 Aroclor business picture augmented by new 9 products. That's all I can say, just 1 0 looking at that chart cold, with nothing 1 1 else. 1 2 Q: Do you know if the new products 1 3 included the replacements for the Aroclors? 1 4 A: I would assume so. 1 5 Q: Do you know why sales were 1 6 projected to go down two million? 1 7 A: Because you're losing some sales 1 8 of the existing products. 1 9 Q: Of the existing Aroclor products? 2 0 A : Yes. 2 1 Q: And do you know why the return on 2 2 investment is projected to go down? 23 A: Because you've lostsales, for one 2 4 thing. And, therefore, you've lost gross 2 5 profits And'you ' r e-.. t aking - - you're Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042645 -.j'j 14 1 1 spending a lot more for research here. So, 2 that would redu c4' that cost. Now, this is 3 for a year 1971, and I would assume that 4 that would mean that in subsequent years 5 those numbers ought to get back to where 6 the initial ones were. But this gross 7 investment would be higher. There wasn't 8 any question that whatever you did, if you 9 stayed in business, it was going to be less 1 0 profitable for you to stay in business. 1 1 Q: Because of the need for new 1 2 investment? 1 3 A: Yes. You've lost sales out of the 1 4 existing business, so since you're adding 1 5 the cost of finding something new and 1 6 developing it, that cost has to get put 1 7 into the P & L statement and it shows that 1 8 there is a diminution. I'm surprised that 1 9 their ROI remained as high as it did, but 2 0 that's not still bad. 2 1 Q: 9.5 is still not bad? 2 2 A : No . 2 3 Q: Was it considered an acceptable 2 4 ROI for 1971? 2 5 A: No, I can't answer that. This was Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042646 __________________________________________________________________________________ 14 2 1 a forecast, and this date here is May '70. 2 And that's all that says, that it is a 3 forecast. 4 Q: But would a 9.5 ROI be acceptable? 5 As I don't know that they were 6 intending it to say it was acceptable. 7 They were intending to say this is what it 8 would be. 9 Q: Assuming that that's what it 1 0 became, is that an acceptable ROI for the 1 1 corporation? 1 2 A: Probably wasn't as high as they 1 3 wanted. But, again, I'd have to go back in 1 4 time to see what else was being discussed, 1 5 I can't tell from this exhibit. 1 6 Q: Please introduce this as Exhibit 1 7 7 16. 1 8 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 9 716 mark'd for identification) . 2 0 MS. WELCH: Exhibit 716 purports 2 1 to be minutes of meeting of the corporate 2 2 management committee, dated September 14, 2 3 1970, with the identifying stamp Tran 2 4 039152 to Tran 039154. Please take a few 2 5 minutes to review this document. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON00426 __________________________________________________________________________________ 14 3 1 A: Okay. 2 Q: I recall earlier that you told me, 3 or we discussed that pursuant to an earlier 4 in 1970 corporate management committee 5 meeting that any modifications of the plan 6 would have to be brought before the 7 management committee, is that correct? 8 A : Yes. 9 Q: Turning to the conclusions, the 1 0 conclusion is that the three month's 1 1 extension requested for phasing out of 1 2 products in hydraulic fluids was approved 1 3 with the caution that the division continue 1 4 to exert pressure to move this program as 1 5 fast as possible. Do you recall that 1 6 extension that was requested and approved? 1 7 A: I do now. I wouldn't have 1 8 remembered that without some refreshment. 1 9 But it says here that in spite of all that 2 0 they've done, and it's pretty impressive, 2 1 the things they have done, they came on 2 2 bended knee and said please, can we have a 2 3 little more time, and the president got 2 4 soft and said.yes. 2 5 Q: So they got three more months from Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON00426' I - __________________________________________________________________________________ 14 4 1 the original plan? 2 A: That's what it says here, that's 3 right. ' 4 MR. PREUSS: On hydraulics? 5 A j Yes. 6 MS. WELCH: Do you have any 7 further recollection of that discussion? 8 A : No . 9 Q: Do you know what 1242-B was? 1 0 A : No . 1 1 Q: Mr. Throdahl, once again referring 1 2 to Turbinol 153, do you have any 1 3 recollection of the termination of Turbinol 1 4 153 being brought before the corporate 1 5 management committee in any other 'context 1 6 other than what we've seen? 1 7 A : No . 1 8 Q: Do you have any recollection of 1 9 any discussion in front of the corporate 2 0 management committee of the termination of 2 1 lubricants for gas compressor systems other 2 2 than what we've seen? 2 3 A: Not specifically to that 2 4 question. I don't have any r e c o 11 e.c t i o n of 25 it . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314)241-6750 .(800)878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042649 __________________________________________________________________________________ 14 5 1 Q: From the point in 1 9 6 9 that we saw 2 when issues about PCB termination were 3 first brought before the management 4 committee, was it your understanding that 5 all important changes or features of the 6 plan were to be brought before the 7 corporate management committee? 8 As Yes. Yes. That certainly was 9 explicit in some of these exhibits, and I 1 0 have no reason to believe that the division 1 1 wanted to circumvent that. You can see 1 2 that in this last one that we looked at, 1 3 the spirit of that was that they were 1 4 really doing their best, and I'm just 1 5 having to believe, having known these 1 6 people personally for many years, working 1 7 with them as colleagues and then later in 1 8 that capacity, that they were trying very 1 9 hard, and if there were other times they 2 0 brought something to the CMC on a basis of 2 1 Turbinol, what is it, 153 -- this would be 2 2 one of those -- this would be one of those 2 3 product modifications that I simply 2 4 wouldn't recall, especially with all this 2 5 time that's elapsed. So, I can't be more Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042650 - __________________________________________________________________________________ 14 6 1 explicit than that. 2 Q : But to exempt an Aroclor product 3 from the stated program that was stated in 4 these later minutes that we've seen, that 5 would have to be brought before the 6 corporate management committee, is that 7 correct? 8 A: I would think so. Unless that 9 product Turbinol was meant for an explicit 1 0 customer. Other times, with other 1 1 products, Monsanto would make and sell a 1 2 product with a given name exclusively to a 1 3 given customer, because it had certain 1 4 properties that were unique to it. 1 5 Q: Why would that exempt it from an 1 6 Aroclor withdrawal program? 1 7 A: I didn't say it did. I just said 1 8 on other occasions this was a practice in 1 9 the industry, that if a customer wanted a 2 0 specific mixture of whatever, we might make 2 1 that for him and it would be under a name 2 2 that would be exclusively for that customer 2 3 and no one else. ' 2 4 Q: Under - - 2 5 A: I'm not saying that that's what . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON00426I 14 7 1 Turbinol was, I'm just making a guess to 2 help you out. 3 Q: Understood. But my question 4 remains, would even a special name - 5 assuming that the product contained 6 Aroclors, would that special name exempt it 7 from being brought before the corporate 8 management committee in terms of the 9 withdrawal program? 1 0 A: No, I wouldn't think so. 1 1 MS. WELCH: I have no further 1 2 questions. Thank you very much. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042652 14 8 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, M.C. 2 THRODAHL, and having read the foregoing 3 transcript of the deposition taken on the 4 2nd day of October, 1992, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given 7 on the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 11 1 2 M.C. THRODAHL 13 1 4 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 1 5 day of __________ , 1 9 9 2. 1 6 My Commission expires: ______ 17 18 19 20 2 1 Notary Public 22 23 24 2 5 rg Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON00426 I 14 9 1 State of Missouri 2 SS . 3 CityofSt.Louis 4 I, Ronald A. Gore, a Notary Public 5 in and for the State of Missouri, duly 6 commissioned, qualified and authorized to 7 administer oaths and to certify to 8 depositions, do hereby certify that 9 pursuant to Notice in the civil cause now 1 0 pending and undetermined in the Superior 1 1 Court for the State of California for the 1 2 County of Los Angeles, to be used in the 1 3 trial of said cause in said court, I was 1 4 attended at the offices of Bryan Cave One 1 5 Metropolitan Square, in the City of St. 1 6 Louis, State of Missouri, by the aforesaid 1 7 witness; and by the aforesaid attorneys; on 1 8 the 2nd day of October, 1992. 1 9 The said witness, being of sound 2 0 mind and being by me first carefully 2 1 examined and duly cautioned and sworn to 2 2 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 2 3 nothing but the truth in the case 2 4 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown 2 5 in the foregoing transcript, said testimony Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 . (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042654 1 being by me reported in shorthand and 15 0 2 caused to be transcribed into typewriting, 3 and that the foregoing pages correctly set 4 forth the testimony of the aforementioned 5 witness, together with the questions 6 propounded by counsel and remarks and 7 objections of counsel thereto, and is in 8 all respects a full, true, correct and 9 complete transcript of the questions 1 0 propounded to and the answers given by said 1 1 witness; that signa ture of the deponent was 1 2 not waived by agreement of counsel. 1 3 I further certify that I am not of 1 4 counsel or attorney for either of the 1 5 parties to said suit, not related to nor 1 6 interested in any of the parties or their 1 7 attorneys. 1 8 Witness my .hand and notarial seal 1 9 at St. Louis, Missouri, this _ _ _ _ day of 2 0 __________ 1992. 2 1 My Commission expires May 22, 1994. 22 2 3 Notary Public in and for the 2 4 State of Missouri 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 HARTOLDMON0042655 Monsanto Chemical Company At st. Louis - Roberts 2 Date August JO, 1957 cc C.E. Casparl - M.O. 2 H.C. Koehler - Robts. J> J.M. Magner - Robts. 2 K.E. Maxwell - s. Clara J.W. Starrett - Robts. J> M.C. Throdahl - Robts. 2 To Mr. P. 0. Beni gnus At Roberts J> Reference PQB Sales Information Bulletin 8-27-57 OD 1149 - "Aroclors As Agricultural Subject Chemicals", 4-1-57 by JMM AROCLOR USE TO INCREASE THE INSECTICIDAL LIFE OF LINDANE It is most surprising to see that you are recommending without restriction a use for Aroclor which has not been approved by U.S.D.A.-F.D.A. For the protection of the company it appears that salesmen who may try to promote this use of Aroclor in agriculture should be fully apprised of limitations and of risks involved if promoted for use on feed and food crops. In turn they should apprise customers of the true status of the development and advise them that if they use Aroclor in insecticide formulations on food or feed crops they should first obtain government approval. You may already know that since Aroclors are toxic and, according to your attaohed reference, may extend the residual life of the pesticide, the Federal Government would require the following before selling for use on food and feed crops: (1) Proof of benefits from the application. (2) Data to show whether or not residual Aroclor is present and whether it modifies'the residual amount of Lindane or other active ingredient at harvest. (5) If Aroclor is present or if the residual quantity of Lindane or other active ingredient has been significantly changed, tolerances for the Aroclor and for the pesticide in question must be developed. (4) If a toxic quantity of Aroclor is present at harvest in food or feed crops a tolerance cannot be established until after two year chronic toxicity feeding tests have been completed for the Aroclor. Obviously, much of the above is obviated if the Aroclor-insecticide formulation is not used on food or feed orops. Sven then the label must show safe handling procedures, since Aroclor is toxic. Incidentally, the findings published by Duda, as per your attached reference, are not in aooord with researoh findings reported in reference report OD 1149. In this report you will note that Aroclor IN W* TRAN 053674 HARTOLDMON0042656 Mr. ?. 0. Benignus -2- August 30, 1957 contributes to longevity of insecticidal action only when combined with highly volatile compounds, and then only when applied to hard, smooth surfaces such as glass...not on agricultural plants. This is called to your attention because government label approval for use in agriculture also calls for proof of performance. Admittedly, your August 27 bulletin does not specify using Aroclor in insecticides for use on food or feed orops but neither does it specify such a combination should not be used on food or feed crops. Perhaps this is an over-sight which you willwish to call to the attention of recipients of the bulletin. LVS/eb p.s. We repeatedly find that users of formulations prepared for a speciflo use will apply the material for other uses. in other words, even though Monsanto may encourage the use of Aroclor In pesticide formulations for non-agricultural use you can rest assured that some of it will be used on agricultural commodities. For these reasons alfln it is strongly recommended that we state very specifically in any Monsanto literature, including correspondence, that Aroclora not be used on agricultural conxnoditiea. I believe our Legal Depart ment will confirm that there is an important legal aspect involved. TRAN 053675 HARTOLDMON0042657 I 1C2 Minutes of Meeting of the CORPORATE DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE April 22, 1968 Present: C. E. Sommer - Chairman E. J. Bock J. L. Christian J. L. Gillis R. K. Mueller E. A. O'Neal M. C. Throdahl R. K. Flitcraft - Secretary AOH OObOA 78 HARTOLDMON0042658 I 103 Dr. Anagnostopoulos reviewed the functional fluids group. Phosphate esters and AROCLOR are the two major products in this group. The product group expects to be above the 1968 budget in terms of ROI and on the objective line for net income. 4*--a In the case of AROCLOR the key issue becomes how to significantly increase the sales growth while maintaining the domestic supply position and profitability. It is believed that transformers and heating systems provide the major opportunities. A target of 10 per cent of the transformer market by 1972 has been set. In the case of THERMINOL we have about a 51 M business in 1968, and a target of a $10--20 M business by 1972. In this area, a total systems approach is being used; supply the fluids, design the system and supply the hardware. 79 aDH 006046 HARTOLDMON0042659 Monsanto ................. Tom C. Ford - General Offices Mar ait March 6, 1969 ewe/tct UCftCMet TO : Mr. H. H. Bible Mr. E. J. Bock Mr. J. L. Gillis Mr. Finis Morgan Mr. E. A. O'Neal Mr. E. J. Putzell Mr. T. K. Smith Mr. C. H. Sommer Mr. M. C. Throdahl Mr. H. L. Minckler Mr. H. s. Bergen Mr. D. J. Forreetal Mr. J. E. McKee Mr. R. E. Kelly f Mr? 1. P. Wheeler ^ N 7 I would like to inform you about current publicity on the alleged contamination of wildlife by polychlorinated biphenyls -- the Aroclors marketed by the Organic division. Research of this type began several years ago in Sweden and has been continued by several other scientists, including a Dr. Risebrough from the University of California. His work has appeared in NATURE, an English magazine, and SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN. Late in February, the SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE carried a front page story (copy enclosed). This resulted in several customer and governmental inquiries from the West Coast plus a few letters from citizens there. It now appears this issue will become national. Today we were contacted by TIME which is working on an article for its science section. Since TIME's local correspondent is on the ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH, another story could appear locally. Enclosed is a company statement prepared to answer inquiries. It is the product of a Joint effort between Public Relations, Organic, Medical . A "committee" has been established to handle this and future public inquiries. Howard Bergen is the Organic representative; Elmer Wheeler represents Medical. TCFjsfh Enclosures HARTOLDMON0042660 .\ Monsanto 650005^9 4 . u*nim C*"*M*r tOO N. liMIt'i* Uiliir< tt. Ikwli. Mitieuri tlltt Pe: BU) 614 0000 March 3, 1969 Mr. Robert T. laais Westinghouse Electric Corporation P. O. Box 341 Bloomington, Indiana 47401 ' Dear Mr. Innit: On February 24, the San Francitco Chronicle carried a major feature about "a raenancing new pollutant" found in the San Francisco Bay area. The article was bated on marine life re search carried out by Dr. Robert Risebrough of the University of California. It stated that residues of polychlorinated biphenyl (PCB) were killing certain marine birds and posed a long-term threat to humans. ' This story has caused considerable comment on the West Coast and its claims may be repeated elsewhere. As you know, Monsanto manufactures polychlorinated biphenyl and markets it under our Aroelor trade name. . We, therefore, would like to present some additional facts. ' The work done by Dr. Risebrough dates baek to earlier research by other scientists to analyte the amount of pesticides in wildlife, oil and water. The initial pesticide research was extremely difficult since any search to detect materials in the parts-perbiUion range also brings out other "interferring" substances. 0003334 T 091767 PUMNTtfFS PWf HARTOLDMON0042661 . * , i. 4 V . ' *' ' ' V. .I ' . 1 65.0fif0|> ; Several yiri ago, two Swedish icicntiiti at Stockholm Univreity'i,}- I Institution of Analytical Chemistry, Professor Gunner Widm&rk *' * ^ and Soren Jensen, reported they had identified the other substances'' * [ which were appearing during analysis of chlorinated pesticide,^si- ; j dues. They said some of the materials were poly chlorinated biphenyls * . or PCB. The amount reported was in the parts-per-billion range, or ' less. Since PCB's are not "broadcast" or spread around the land as " are pesticides, the scientists theorised that the source fnust be the ' industrial wastes of PCB users. * . ' Drs Risebrough's more recent work reports the identification of PCB, ; . .along with DDT.and DDE pesticides, in the issues of birds and fish * on the .Wsst'Coast. ` . .,*** 1 *. ;r. '. . . ' > ' * , '' The conclusioneof these scientists are pustling from several aspects. r Polychlorinated biphenyls are stable chemical compounds which are `; '*' essentially insoluble in water. Their use does not make them easily released into the natural environment. -. A principal market for PCB is in electrical applications where they are ueed as insulating fluids for transformers and capacitors. In this use, the chemical is completely sealed in metaLfiantainers^. Another market is for heat transfer applications where the PCB fluid functions in a dosed system. . PCB's are also used is several "plastic type" applications^ .Hare the chemical is incorporated into the polymer as an integral part of the ' solid material. This applies whether the polymer is used as an adhesive, an elastomer or a surface coating. . The Swedish and American scientists also imply that polychlorinated biphenyls are."highly toxic" chemicals. This is simply not true. The toxicity of any material, whether it be chemicals, drugs, natural plants or even foods, is relative. Compared to the thousands of industrial chemicals and home products, PCB's are not toxic unless they are mishandled or misused. During more than thirty years of U. S. production and use, eases of any toxic effect have been extremely rare - and then only where the simple precautions recommended fer use were not followed. - '. r.0003385 ` . J IN 1768 HARTOLDMON0042662 J h l V V -3 -r> ^5000601: '. . . * * ' > *. , To our knowledge, polychlorinated biphenyls art not sprayed or . , . . dusted nxreps," woodlands or any other areas, .as are 'pe sticide s.; . | It is, therefore, net only pussling, but extremely difficult y .con^ - (;v'e'eive bow* commercially produced PCB ean show up"ln wildlife a'i ' ` ** _ | DDT and Other pesticides appear to be. . This raises the'question *..w . ' * ' wbetbar the' subitance identified in the Swedish work, and now in , California, is actually PCB - or whether they are materials which! " . ' due-to the metabolism of other materials in the marine environment, . . Appear a to be PCB. . . ; v , `. - Unfortunately, even though techniques for analysing tissue samples ^bave become quite precise, the ability to analyse the possible . ' impact of naturally occurring substances in the food cycle of living organlsras'has not made comparable advances. ' . > / ' * ; *. . ' . Monsanto has a research progjfaSflPjto-confirm the Identity of the * .' pompounds .reported to he PCB'by the Swidieh and California : . . scientists. We also cooperate, on a regular basis, with federal, state and university laboratories in their analysis of chlorinated * hydrocarbon residues. ' ` Additionally, Monsanto will continue to exercise the highest degree of control in its manufacturing, shipping and storage of PCB -- as `vi do with all products. In the functional fluids market, we have carried out a program for several years for the reclamation of used PCB's to avoid disposal of these valuable materials. The source of the marine life residue identified as.PCB is not yet known. It will take extensive research, on a worldwide basis, to confirm or deny the initial scientific conclusions. We will keep you advised of our own research and are available to answer question# at they may arise. Very truly yours. /ecd HO003386 rimer P. Wheeler Manager Environmental Health T 091764* HARTOLDMON0042663 . .* * Monsanto phi . tweeter MMMNI TO : * St. Louis March 7, 1969 . ''O- '*. " . Dr. R. Emmet Kelly Deer Emmet: The^Aroclorobt is really boiling. Monte Thredahl asked me tfc-ft*ye"lunch with his today to five his the background as to what the whole problem is about. He said he might call me Monday morning to give a IS minute presentatien to the Corporate Development Committee. He thought that he could probably answer questions that might arise but told me to be prepared. a Bill Richard and Z were at Calandra's yesterday and the proposals from Joe on the various studies are to be under* taken posthaste, including the two-year chronics in rats and dogs. We are to have a meeting, possibly before you return, of those involved here in St. Louis, Joe Calandra, and one or two of his people, with perhaps as many as three consultants who are already retained by Monsanto for either Ag Division or HID projects. These include entomologists and enzyme specialists from the University of Illinois, Marquette, and possibly Harvard. The intent is to select someone from the university who can serve as an objective spokesman on this whole problem and with contacts not intimately related to Monsanto or Industrial Bio-Test. I have enclosed a copy of the final form of the PR release that was developed last week. This has been sent to 21 Monsanto customers over my signature. X was not asked as .to whether or not I should sign such a release but guess "that Bergen or Minckler decided that I should. They had the letters typed and brought over here for signing. In terms of 'goals' or 'objectives* Joe left told me today that the solid wastes bunch in Washington have been asked to consider financing part of the cost of our pro posed combination steam boiler/incinerator for plastic wastes at Port Plastics. The Cincinnati office of the solid wastes program has already indicated that they thougnt the project was worthy of U. S. financial support. HO003394 T 091770 cRjU*fflFF$ ` EXHIBIT Vii'5'3 HARTOLDMON0042664 On the second item l have contacted Leo Weaver end expect to meet with hire Monday morning. I guess that's all of the important news. We sure hope you are enjoying your trip, which in Hr. Hixon's terms is a "working trip," ' ` ~ ' * " IPW/ln enc. ro003335 5 G05** T 091771 HARTOLDMON0042665 TOs Mr. E. J. Bock CC: Mr. H.. H. Bible Mr, J, I., Gil lie Mr. E. J. Putzell, Jr. Mr. C. H. Sommer Mr. M. C. Throdahl Mr. J. R. Eck Mr. J. N. Ehlers & jfrfa - ~B Mr. E. S. Bauer Mr. W. H. Bromley Mr. A. J.A. Bryan Mr. J. E. Crawford Mr. C. P. Cunningham Mr. W. B. Daume Mr. J. M. Depp Dr. L. Fernandez Mr. R. K. Flitcraft Mr. D. J, Forrestal Dr. R. S. Gordon Mr. J. D, Mahoney Mr. H. L. Minckler Mr. Finis Morgan Mr. H. K. Nason Mr. E. A. O'Neal Mr. Sam Pickard Mr. F. E. Reese Mr. T. K. Smith Dr. M. N. Johnson Mr. E. P. Wheeler Cfb A QUARTERLY REPORT August, September 1969 MEDICAL DEPARTMENT CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION This document contains confidential information which is the property of Monsanto Company. Only those portions of the document relevant to a duly authorized individual's need to know may be excerpted for him. The report must not be sent outside the company without written approval and the authorized recipient is accountable for its safekeeping, excerpting, or otherwise disclosing of its contents and for its proper disposal. Please destroy this report when you are finished with it. COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 02*2*2 HARTOLDMON0042666 SUMMARY OF MOST SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENTS July, August, September 1969 PolychlorobiphenylB (Aroclora) publicity becomes nationwide and pprtentious. Please read section under Environmental Control. COMPAMY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 024243 HARTOLDMON0042667 I The following is the report of the Medical Department activities during the months of July, August, September 1969. 1. General Medical Supervision Medical inspections were carried out at Bridgeport, Decatur, El Dorado Refinery and Chemical Plant, Hartford, Kearny, Pensacola and Trenton. No significant undiscovered problems were present at* any of these installations. At Pensacola our No. 3 doctor was . lured away by the Pensacola Plant of St. Regis Paper, which offered him a salary higher than our No.l doctor was receiving. We again recommended salary adjustments on all our full-time physicians and received a partial response from the Textiles Division. We were fortunate, after a 15 month search, in finding an excellent full time physician for our Decatur Plant. To balance this, we have received word that our principal Queeny Plant physician, who has been with us for five years, is leaving due to the press of his private practice. A search has been started for his replacement. With the affluent society and the more affluent medical profession, this promises to be somewhat difficult. 2 Toxicology During this period 43 samples were submitted for acute toxicity studies. Seven long-range projects are underway. The most recent one was testing on methylacrylonitrile. This is the monomer that may be extracted from one of our more promising packaging applica tions . The flurry of the problem with enzymes in detergents seems to have quitted--downv~At-an^rate, P6G has remained surprisingly quiet. interest and concern regarding the presence of Aroclors (specific ally 1254 and 1260) in the environment continued to grow. Newspaper comments (some "viewing with alarm") on the appearance of a new "global contaminant" followed the Wisconsin DDT hearings on pro posals to ban the use and sale of this insecticide. The Aroclors or "PCB's" were brought into the testimony as interfering substances which exaggerate the concentrations of DDT being found in fish, food and the environment. An editorial writing service picked up the story and a "canned" editorial appeared in a number of smaller news papers in various parts of the country--identifying Monsanto as the only United States producer of this new menacing contaminant. The State Department of Agriculture in Connecticut reported finding PCB's in fish in that state. This led to two articles in the Hartford Times; the first following an interview with the chemist COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 02^244 HARTOLDMON0042668 "2 " reporting the findings and a longer story in the Sunday supplement covering Monsanto's position relative to the situation. Subse quently , two five-minute radio tapes prepared by the outdoor and wildlife editor were made available to a syndicated network of 108 radio stations. The first again was an interview of the analytical chemist and the second an interview with a member of the Medical Department. During the summer we have received reports of PCB's in milk in Georgia and Maryland; in fish and water of Lake Michigan; in fish and oysters in the Gulf of Mexico. The latter led to sampling of the Escambia River below our Pensa cola Plant outfall and approximately 40 ppb (parts per billion) of Aroclor 1254 were found by biologists of the West Florida State Uni versity, one-fourth mile below the plant. Studies then done by the Pensacola Laboratories of the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries (U.S. Department of Interior) indicated that 400 ppb killed 50% of shrimp exposed to this concentration for 96 hours. Subsequently, the 1aboratory found that 5 ppb killed baby shrimp in 18 days, This is significant since shrimp are not completely a deep sea water organism. Instead they spawn in brackish or fresh waters adjacent to the sea, and we are in danger of being held responsible for the declining shrimp population in the Pensacola Bay area. Our Pensacoia Plant was contacted by the university and the Florida state and local water pollution agencies. Investigation by the plant revealed that Pydraul AC was being used in our air compressors as a lubricant and that approximately two to six gallons a day were being lost to our drains and eventually the river. Pydraul AC contains nearly 50% Aroclor 1254, so the loss represents only one to three gal Ions a day of PCD, The plant immediately switched back to mineral Oil lubricants. It may be a number of years, however, be fore Aroclor 1254 disappears from the river since bottom samples of mud have shown the presence of several hundred parts per billion of Aroclor. Evidence indicates that the more highly chlorinated PCB's, including Aroclor 1254 are not subject to biodegradation and the solubility of 1254 is only approximately 100 parts per billion. Other sources of contamination (in milk, etc.) have not been pin pointed but it appears likely that some of our customers' products will be found responsible. For example, our research effort- stimulated by a report that a dishwashing compound was found to contain PCB's by a federal government laboratory in Michigan, re vealed that four of five electric dishwashing compounds purchased in a supermarket in St. Louis contained up to 5 ppb of Aroclor. The possible effects of the contamination are expressed by government and university representatives in terms of implications relating to DDT and chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides rather than to any "hard" facts. For example, the "Anacapa disaster" allegedly has resulted from DDT and PCB's in anchovies. COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 024245 HARTOLDMON0042669 -3- Anaeapa Island, off the coast of Oxnard, California, is the breeding ground for many sea birds and particularly the brown pelican, in vestigations by scientists at the University of California at Berkeley in the last two years have "proven" that the pelican faces extinction because of DDT and "hundreds of parts per million" of PCB's being found in anchovies--TTe chTef diet oF the peTican. This year, of 1,000 eggs found on the island, only three had any shells and only one new-born bird was found in the area. (Any possible effect of the oil spill at Santa Barbara has been ruled out). Briefly, the biological cycle involved is as follows: 1. Fish living in waters containing a few parts per billion of persistent chlorinated hydrocarbons concentrate these compounds in their tissues more than a thousand-fold (e.g., trout in water with one part per billion of DDT will have one part per million of DDT in their tissues after six weeks. 2. Birds eating such fish concentrate the chlorinated compounds in their fatty tissue and liver. 3. In the liver, the compounds enhance microsomial enzyme activity which affects hormone production. 4. The influence or hormones in turn affect calcium metabolism which leads to the production of eggs with decreased shell thickness or no shell at all. (Colored slides of Anaeapa Island show just "blobs" of eggs lying in the nests with the yolks and whites contained only in the shell inner membrane). In Washington, in October, a paper will be presented at the meeting of the Association of Official Analytical Chemists entitled, "The Determination of PCB1s in Two Bald Eagles." From this may arise proclamations that "the very emblem of American heritage is threatened with extinction due to PCB's"1 The Organic Division, which produces this series of very profitable products, has a concerted effort underway to protect continued sales and uses. It is likely, however, that it will be found impossible to prevent losses to the environment of Aroclors 1254 and 1260 in some customer applications and that public and governmental pressures will lead to restrictions that cannot be met without discontinuing production and sales. Concurrently, action is being directed at protecting the sale and uses of the other polychlorinated biphenyls and terphenyls. B Pollution Control Of immediate local interest, of course, is the low sulfur-in-coal problem. We believe that you have all been briefed on the details of this situation by the Chairman of the Environmental Control Committee, Division Managers (Organic and Inorganic) and the Director of the Public Relations Department. Our role has been one of support COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL 02,'2`'` HARTOLDMON0042670 to tho local plant managers through divisional pollution liaison representatives and the Control Committee. We have continually pointed out that the local plants faced a peculiar situation in the St. Louis area that made it impossible to maintain a favorable public image. The most that could be hoped for was to emerge with Ma gray hat rather than a black one." In all other Monsanto plants pollution control activities are proceeding on acceptable schedules. The Seattle Plant was fined $500 (reduced from $2,500) for leaks from valves on storage tanks into the receiving waters by the barge unloading facilities. The fine was imposed by a U. S. attorney at the request of the U. S. Coast Guard under authority granted by pre-turn of the century legi elation. The Port Plastics Plant was the subject of complaints by boaters and fishermen following discharge of milky plastic wastes to the Ohio River during three successive weeks. Ironically, two of the discharges resulted from carelessness on the part of contractor employees working on the new pollution control project. A two day private meeting of representatives of elemental phos phorus producers to exchange information on the control of environ mental pollution techniques was held in September. Inorganic Division personnel attending felt that the exchange would be helpful in cutting some of our expected costs for air pollution control of emissions from tap holes, slag runners, etc. Such a meeting was suggested by one of our staff members in September, 1967. C. INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE Routine studies or visits were made to the Decatur, Eugene, Luling, W. G. Krummrich, Pensacola and J. F. Queeny Plants. Special investigations concerning noise, asbestos, dust exposures and elemental phosphorus in air were made at the Columbia Plant. A review of any possible hazards incidental to adhesives, solvents and marking paints for Astroturf installation was completed at the request of the business group. 5. General Offices The good health expected during the summer months, together with vacation schedules has caused some lessening of the dispensary activity. No problems worthy of note occurred. A total of 931 examinations and 4363 other dispensary visits were carried out. REK/ln K. Emmet Kelly, M. D. COMPANY CONFIDENTS TRAN 0 2 ^ 2 *7 HARTOLDMON0042671 SENT P.Y'i-? YU u A' ' : 10- 1-32 : i :uoPV : SHEARMAN $ STERLiYG-RITZ CARLTON STLOL IS = 4 I i Ml ,\ UT e S Of r,iZT I N G OF THE CORPORATE DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE Jf . November 17, 1 S ' . Present; Messrs. E. J H , H, J. R, J. L. E . J, C. H. J, N. C 0 c * , Chairman Bible Eck C i 1 I ;s PutzelI $ omm e r E h1e r s, Secretary ( .* n Lw ORGANIC DIVISION, LAW AND MEDICAL DEPARTMENTS -- REPORT ON POLY* chlorinated BIPHENYLS___________________ ____________________ _____________________ Present: Messrs. C. J. Smith, J. Mason, T. K. Smith, H. S. Bergen, J. E. Spr1ngga te, R. E. Kelly, E, P. Wheeler, Rodney Harris, Jr., D. W. Mil Ur , W. C. Robinson Monsanto's worldwide Aroclor bus Ines*_amou n t s to 10 b M lbs./yr., 70M used In functional fluids and 3k M In plasticizers. This represents $22 ff 1 n sales. Products range from monoch lorob i pheny 1 COMP'"* v CONFIDENTIAL rRAN 0232,8 HARTOLDMONOQ42672 13 til4 !j33l lu- 1-32 1:ij7p>: ; SHEARMAN & STERL1NO-RITZ CARLTO.N STLOLIS;* 6 . 78. I lo dacach lorobi phenyl , terphenyls, and chlorinated tor-phenyls, product I on locations ar at Anniston, Alabama, Sauge t, Illinois, O Newport, U.K, and Yokkaichi, Japan. F n v 1 ronme n,t a 1 Aspectt * . P . Wheeler The 5 and 6 chlorinated biphenyls (Aroclor 1 25k and 1260) have been found at limited locations In water, in birds and some forms of aquatic life. Recent indications are that such biphenyls may affect reproduction of fowl life and may be toxic to shrimp. These products are not toxic from the acuta standpoint CO man or fish but there [s some evidence of ecological buildup in certain water oposit s , in fish and ultimately in bird life. - Aroclors 12^8 end lower in number are believed to be biodegradable but this has not been conclusively established as yet. Plan of Action - H. $, Bergen and J . E. Springgata The availability of alternate products to satisfy customer requirements was reviewed. Main problems are that no replacement product Is available for capacitors and replacement products for ocher uses pose a pollution problem. In plasticizer uses , evidence Is not available as to whether Aroclors escape from and products , either through leeching or by dispersal in burning. .. .i . . -r The recommended plan of action Is to establish a tailored program for each business group and each customer market situation to assure that the loss of PCB's In the environment, If any, is O minimal. COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 023300 HARTOLDMON0042673 . _______________ ________________ ..... . SENT BY: 2!3 61-1 <j33' : 1 (_i- 1-92 : 1:OdPM : sHE4R5ft.\ & STERL ING-RITZ CARLTON STLOLIS: = 7 ' 79. I 1 . Appoint a Project Manager - responsible for the overall management of the Aroclor pollution problem. He would be assisted by a Task force from members of each business group plus Medical, Law, Engineering and Manufacturing, 2. Notify <d | | Aroc 1 or customers of PCB.problem, 3. Reduce and effectively control PCB effluents from Monsanto plants. 4. Educate customers on need to reduce and affectively control PCB effluents at their plants. 5. Develop and Implement new packaging systems for Aroclor 1254/1260. 6. Introduce to market, replacement products for Aroclor 1 2 5 4/1260. 7t Continue and expand blc-degradetion test program with Aroclor series, particularly 12A2, 12 46 and 1254. 8. Continue toxicological test program. 3. Accelerate present analytical t e $ t program, . 10. Determine feasibility and cost of eliminating 5/6 Cl In Aroc1 ors 1242 and 1248. 2 1 1 . Study Incineration products, 12. Develop business plan to offer; - Monsanto Fluid Reclamation and Recovery with Enviro Chem. (Reclamation already under way at Findett.) Cost of this program Is estimated at approximately $400M SARE and S70CM capital to change equipment. ' Conclusions: In light of the recent and developing evidence of a possible threat to certain species of b I rda nd aquatic life, we should plan to discontinue the manufacture.of Aroclors 1254 and 1260. The Division Is Instructed to develop a program to discontinue these products and report this to the Committee. . The status of Aroclor 1242 should continue to be tested whether It COnt ributes to this problem. Other products be Involved should also be *xmIned. (Excerpt to Messrs, H, L. M1 nck1 ar, Rodney Harris, Jr., T. K. Soil th. ) . to determine which might ' R. E- Kelly, COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 02330 L HARTOLDMON0042674 dEM BY: Lit 239-<J08l I l`J- 1-32 : 3'34PV. :SHEARMAN i LIRL i NG -R117. CARLTON iTLOl IS -- AO / o PCS PRESENTATION TO CO R F 0 R A'T E DEVELOPMENT COL. M ITT El / I'M I. IKCTCLTTl^OH: <.re .Lore today to acquaint you with the PCB (Arocior) pollution problem and to secure your guidance and approval ,I on a - re commend ed plan of action. Conti in LCD's have recently been identified by various c.1 cutlets along with IlPf in rich, birds, and other wildlife, j.'rojii the standpoint of reproduction, the PCB'a are highly t;;;-lc to birds. In a fev; moments, Elinor .'heeler will desciube the Problem in detail. i Our pbjectivc i3 to describe for you the basic problems, the issues Involved, review alternative courses of action, and suggest an action plan program fc-r your approval. Ls a serious matter, not only from tnc pollution viewpoint, but. also because of the 7 worldwide customer busineay involved with resultant greae prof!to of .f'10 Ti and a net investment of approximately $9 7. In addition, there could bo pIouciblo advorso log'll -,ud public relations problems level ad against ,Monsanto. Our Af'cnda will be ac follows: COMPANY CONFinFNTIAL I EXHIBIT NO. 2&J TRAN 02,713 r\ "l HARTOLDMON0042675 isl J1 i'i- l-fi? i A.'SiPV ; SHF ARVAN A - TFf?l i\ft -PIT/ <"A(?I TON sfl <11'!*;= fir ~2" i | | PCD AGENDA REVIEW i X. INTRODUCTION il. THE PROBLEM ' - DEVELOPMENTS INCRIMINATING PCB's i - COMPLEXITY 01/ iDKNTIFICATiON i j - NATURE OP ; - SERIOUSNESS III. LAW DEPARTMENT VIEWPOINT AND RECOMMIT! DATIONS IV. EFFECT ON MONSANTO AMD ALTERNATIVES V. FUNCTIONAL FLUID BUSINESS GROUP DISCUSSION ; - MARKETS, USES ' - SOURCES OP POLLUTION . - CUSTOMER EFFECT VI. PLASTICIZER BUSINESS GROUP DISCUSSION - MARKETS, USES - SOURCES OF POLLUTION VII. RECOMMENDED ACTION PLAN ' VIII. SUMMARY COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL r--v " * * * ' ' TRAN 02<*7L4 " ** ' '" HARTOLDMON0042676 ,ij- 1-32 : 5;5--P>: ^bHEAKA-A.N i cTIRLiNG -M1Z CARLTON eiL'.lilz By way of introduction, the Organic Division and the Medical Department has been actively engaged for the last 18 months | . in developing facts and knowledge on this subject by personal visits to Universities and Industrial test laboratories, other worldwide producers, and other industrial collaborators, as well as keeping abreast of all literature and nows sources on tho subject as well as funding a fcoxicological and analytical test program in excess of fcLOO M. We established an Ad Hoc Commit too of both Business Croups arid Medical which recently issued a report - much of which will be discussed today. We have learned a lot, but there is much yet to learn as you will hear. What arc TCP's? I They arc polychlorinated biphenyls - better known to U3 as Aroclors. The next slide v/ill Quickly re familiarize you with our Arocldr business. COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 02A7L5 HARTOLDMONOQ42677 SENT BV:-213 2?3-'.,;-Yl :Uj- 1-30 ; 5--5jPV :iHEA*VA.\ & ^TZRL:NC -El AKL70N iTLOliA;- 5 -4- MO NS AN TO WORLDWIDE AROCLPR BUSINESS POUWDS/uvAR SALES/'YLAR 104 $22 H (70 M in Kurd; ion til Fluids '34 M in Plasticisers) (Cl6 M in Functional Fluids $ 6 M in Plasticisers) GROSS PROFI?/YKAR I I GROSS INVESTMENT ROI . ' WORLDWIDE M/I MONSANTO PRODUCTION LOCATIONS other producers; $13 M ($6.8 M net investment) 10.5# 62% USA (2 plants, Anniston, Alabama Sauget, Illinois) UK (Newport) JAPAN (Yolckaichi) Bayer, Proociec, CaYlaro, Flick, Kanegahuclni , and several Eastern Jiuropeau producer,-.; (all cx-USA) . 1/ *-- y C { r >> COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 02A716 HARTOLDMON0042678 w'i :l.hv.,\ i >U I' I ' - i V. * J 1 L-'-'l. i w THE AROCLOR PRODUCT LINE CHEMICAL NAME TRADE NAME MONOCIILOROBI PHENYL AROCLOR 1221 D.XCIlLOROBIPHAINYL AftOCLOR 12A2 TR1CIIL0R0BIPH KNYL AROCLOR 1242 tetrachlorobiphenyl AROCLOR 1248 P .ENTACH LO ROB IP11EHYL AROCLOR 125^ HEXAC1IL0H0BIP1IENYL AROCLOR 12S0 HEPTACHLOROBI PHENYL AROCLOR 1262 0 CTAC11LORODI ?H ENYL AROCLOR 1268 DECACHLOROBIPRENYL AROCLOR 1270 TERPHENYLS SANTOWAX CHLORINATED TERPHENYL AROCLOR 5;!60 NATURE OP MATERIAL TH IN LIQUID OILY LIQUID HEAVY molass; . THICK TAR \' SOLID N/ so LID COMPANY CONFIDENT/^ TRAN 02^71? HARTOLDMONOQ42679 S i There are theoretically 210 different isomers of chlorinated biphenyls. Monsanto entered the Aroclor market in 1930 hy acquiring Swan Chemical Company, The first load of Arocior went out of Anniston, Alabama to General Klee trio in 1931. Since then, the market has grown to one of Monsanto's most profitable : franchises, !<-{ , ,, t i." , Thin franchise la now being threatened by '/ ' > A recently found pollution pr'obiema which Klmer -/heeler will now discuss. II. The Problem (V)beoler) see attacl;erj Appendix A III, Law Department Viewpoint find kecommeudations (French) IV, Effect on Monsanto and Our Alternative Courses of Action As discussed, Aroc3,ors 1299 and 1260 -- the 9 and 6 Cl ' ringed biphenyls are the ones most seriously involved in the pollution problem. Doth Plasticisers and Fluids Groups are involved as shown: COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 02A718 HARTOLDMON0042680 1 - 32 Jp>: :iHARAN i '.'TPRLlVi -KIT.7 i'ARLR'N RL<.>UR= ts- AROCLOR SALES (M POUNDS) AROCLOR 12'54 AROCLOR 1260 & ABOVE FLUIDS 1.45 3.7 5.15 PLASTICIZERS 5-4 l.Y 7.1 total 6.85 5.4 12.25 CO/VfPANy Confidential tran oz^7l 9 HARTOLDMON0042681 1II- 5: : eHAR\AN TiiRLlNG -Pi TZ GARLiON o7L',ti:>: = 9/ -9' V/e considered 4 alternative courses of action; : (Glide) ! i Alternative 1; t>o nothing was considered unacceptable from a legal, moral ;awl customer , public relations fi-. company policy viewpoint. Tills is also the quickest route to being forced out of business. Alternative 2 : Go out of total Aroclor business was considered unacceptable from a Divisional viewpoint, but from a Corporate viewpoint may be necessary. Only-you-can''.nak(?-that--dec.ln;i.on. All Aroclor products are not serious pollutants - many degract; there is too much customor/market hood and selfishly too much Monsanto profit to go out, To go out would require a write off of Aroclor net investment of $7 M (10^/share) or If biphenyl included !j;8.8 FI (3.2fi/ohni,o), In addition, Inventory disposition, continuing cost of util.Lt.b. a, and back-up capital and serious manpower Si resources reallocation at Anniston. Alternative 3; Go out of Aroclor 1234 and 1260. This was Beriounly considered and may eventually occur by our actions and. customer actions, nevertheless, we loci that cegments of thin business are defers ble or arc co "confined" in use that specific plane of action arc colled for this portion, Qur ueaooi for eliminating this alternative villi become clearer an we ontl.li our notion plans COMPanY CONFIDENTIAL Tran 02A720 HARTOLDMONOQ42682 i-yi' : 0: ujP.V :^HEAR,VA\ x STERLING -hi fi OARi.B'.N cTL'.'l I i-lu V- alternative: courses of action 1. DO NOTHING - J'JST REACT TO LEGISLATION AND EMOTION. 2. GO OUT ON TOTAL ARQCLQR BUSINESS, 3. GO OUT OP AROCLOR 123'1 AND 1260 PRODUCTION M. DEVELOP SPECIFIC ACTION PLANS "TAILORED'1 TO 'EACH BUSINESS GROUP AMD EACH CUSTOMER/MARi'ET SITUATION TO "CLEAN UP" THE MESS, COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 02<t?21 HARTOLDMON0042683 -lip- A1terns Live d; Develop specific action plane tailored to each Business Group and each customer/markc-t situation, - was the alternative selected at this point of time and based on our knowledge from a Divisional viewpoint as making Mont;aeito act in the most positive, responsible way to soexety raid our customers, as well as our interests. i However, because of the magnitude and s ex'i outness of this f/V-^ rtV/v problem and its total implications for Cbrporo.to Monsanto, 11 * , . . i . 1* he fina^. decision on this matter must be made by-the CDC. Funcbonql Fluids Business Group Pi. ecus si on: Aroclors arc used widely in 3 of our h market areas in the Fluids Group i COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL Iran HARTOLDMONOQ42684 FLUIDS USE OF ARCCLODS BY MARKET AREA ,0R PRODUCT DOMESTIC MARK F.T AREA INDUSTRIAL HEAT TRANS EAR ELECTRICAL TOTAL 12H2 i 12^18 1284 , 1260 ai Above 4.1 1.2 - 0.6 5.9 1.1 1.0 0.1 ". 2.2 36 M 0.8 3.3 40.3 41.2 2.2 0.9 4.1 48.4 COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL tAN 02^723 HARTOLDMONOQ42685 SOURCES OF FLUIDS POLLUTION APPLICATION TNnilSTRT AT. FLIlinS UTF,TiK(7PRT0R HEAT TRANSFER PRODUCIN') PLANTS INTENSITY OF POLLUTION r.mrATirsT (niRFcr) (TNriTRFCT CONTAINED) (INDIRECT CONTAINED) LEAST (DIRECT) COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL rH*N OJ4724 HARTOLDMON0042686 11J ' ' FLUIDS CUSTOMER ALTERNATIVES nr nn i i inn n m, mm**................ i " """ H MmilHIWWIffl 1 area op_ application Industrial Fluids i Trims i.'nriif v Capacitors Heat Transfer PRODUCT OF CHOICE CUSTOMER OPTIONS Pydraul 312/F-9/ Customer could gel alcn, A-2QQ/Phoaphat<s Esters/ without uo) but Pydraui WaLur Cn.Ycnl J ilivoj'od, ]!^,0 Cly? t' has Sumo pollution prob. Phosphate ester route oi at present. A1 r/Ci i./A 1*001 r/Qi c Could drup ArsslM' at sacrifice; of safety, co: or site of equipment or noise level. Arocloro No Immediate replacemetf available. Longer torn oil at expense of size and cost of efficiency and redesign of cquipme: Therminol Oi l/Dow the rm/T66 T55 177 TO 8 No option for FJ1 liquid market. Other system possibility. Liquid systems favored. T66 and T55 increasing rapidly in use. Oil al; a pollution problem. n*-* *pr v"<m nurr mi COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 02A725 HARTOLDMON0042687 O'Lnrx onc.-iK,'.HA & .>icku* au mi*. l.aki.iu\ ^jujl i ->--i->.- o. -if Customer Choices fc Altern;;tlVfiS ft Penn 1 f.i rn; Suiniuurl.'-iiiti, some or our customers have no Immediate alternative, soma; could change only at o aard.fi ooo of oai'H-y, cr coil ur various technical rafters, QnlY in till ft Tnflllfil'.rl al f'lftlrl could the custom nr make, nn Immediate convarv ion, p CD Threat fco Punct.lorQ I fluids Du si no as and Pro fit; Company confidential TRAN 02^726 HARTOLDMONOQ42688 wi n ___* '-x .i -IN v UVL 1. . '< . A. I FLUX PS BUSINESS THREATENED (X2ZO_BTrD0ET) PROBLEM 1. Confined to A-125^/ 1260 only. .Spronrir. to A-12^12 and SALES $ 3.0 H First to: ' a) Industrial Fluids Then to: U */ UtBiSUlyU^ V -IUUS Then to: c) Heat Transfer $ A.O M ;$> 0, U lvl $ 1.0 M SIETST-t aRoss r roi $1.36 M $1.6 M $ f. 0 M $ ,6 M vrwvi ' f 11.1 1 i r / / COMPANY CONFIDENT!/! I ,(i TRAN 0Z4 72 7 HARTOLDMON0042689 *JL_ 1 T LJ i ' 1 -- X U ' j.u J 1 CI I i. U 1 c/i *J ' ^*11 '* Jl u_-kiv.n.-i. \ ^ j I t_iu_ I. iu mi- I-.-V1U-I v.' JILUUJ'-U;a A' J-i k. .0 i i O i-/V vHiiO--. . .. /</',) I J J'Olu'Dy ' -0j ,0 y.iT !A_ r- 7- ( * v/ . * .aA:.'O (; 5,0 VI 3'. o v: t 2.3 t i /.R00L0?. I3V12Co r, / ; 4. .______________ 4 t I I COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL I KAN U^*t ^0 HARTOLDMON0042690 -16- .L. i jiurut's jV.ssr.yc:.' 'or a.irect uta. cuavoanei'S - 570. 2. | Out'.6idtill 3 Ulx'u'cl customer! i ix-jk/ikC'o ' i lest. i 3, j do::iumL.u A-125^/l^0 s>ulfu through diHLr'lluTcr'! - I' I dli'i'ierl0 to police. I ; ! i : ! I f I COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TR.AN OZ^ 729 HARTOLDMON0042691 I 'l ! i11 , `n i! 1 i 1| 11 fff?s : ?5i? 3alp3 i'iAJOK ARCC1/Vr-f*>; \ ,..> ^'rw.y n. Z :.'. /U'JOIOT'j pn1,r,fi'nr.^ TViam" 1 xj'PL! ;:o*o :.Vlbi1 Adhesives Sv;li.:.iinc Pool Points i Pro ; outlive Coolings | /.cVr.o:3'lvcu J.i 1U1jh 5.7 :n lb, 1.7 ft lb. ft *3 M lb. 1 5 ft lb. 3.0 `ft ib. Aroclor >.o0 LAA.-reS e1l or * j. n \ AAO C:.". dm 123' Kr AbOcl ur 5^C) V 0i t s /.r0 j lo / AArb-ooo.-.v.n .x.0.'0io.-l1/; 1 h'-'i 'ni.i! ' r* 1 -- 1 !1i 2.0 Pi lb. B n 'ft 1 h. Ai-oc.-or- n n *_ Aroclor Amo 0 lor Aroclor i. rJp'i ..:)i w0' 1 fifQ.;, H;,1 " 1 ' 3 irfi jnr fur. rn ' (Peft nf 1 v nr'liY' ii'.'-'r' " n 1 'i ' , ! . of cic.nc...j r* -J . oclor-o sole COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL tran 0^7TM HARTOLDMON0042692 I liOO MO I rcssutL:;: cc:sTA.--.:'v?A?n:0Nt sources (Pl'.ASPICAZSRS) 'Ci,:aop j\0V/ HAJcgcr Coatin;';o coatlkiv APPLICATION 30UACL nop;1.;`ic ?<;; ni*.^) in ' iif j linings ) T,rnrr,i r.s ; ' f;v;v.:.nri r.z Pool Lcach.lnc- IS A-1 ' /ISg;j -iloCT Yas hvt.-' V | C,'; V'^wiV' wpii'i i CuuL'Yn n'n.yw'*' i V.'ri:: \ y.curicarion i Hi,. A. 1 i.< 0.1 I Acbr.oivoo hot Role hccivc: o w* c, nc. cnU 'i n - Vapori^aS ion Vaoorication Contact \rJ.th proc/ur.-c via pack;-;:'5 r;-, inci'noration. Contact v.<ith product via packa"iro. lnciteration. Auto.active ` 1* * , r> 'l " N't f> Lonr;-'iw'Z'r. It c. oh in* Yes Yet ko U;Arc iluilo, Arcelor plasticizers arc corbin.;;. ir. .o p'.'.-ctics lie. -vouucc.- tee .ALtal product - therefore^ Aar :o uebi'.... i'L. o r.va'.: ao v:actcc .'rorc our danuf:*ctcy-ir.p. pi.-:at , r .cc:a. pi..,.'.i.na oao loucitii oi dru.us cor.sr.on to both prav... . ; or protect A vo co,vtir.,;o are- not considered a PJ ,h ' ;t< pi.o.iii prcccucin.: or or COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL tRAN oz-um HARTOLDMON0042693 SLvT lu-' 1 -32 r ti:U7PM SHEARMAN & STERLING -KITZ CARLTON STLOUS:#21/3 LASTj.CIZM'; BUSIN ;iS LUIvIA'ICUND i 1, Co;H':1.f..zl oO A-J.Ui/j /1260 typo- |>nly. v* P - ' 1 L 0 C L m ,.;oa aX-y.'ii.-r.jla. S>.:00 a I'll i/o.v * ;.ri c; rL'.o/'i.cl'CvP SALEH 'I..IN. Y(' y'O3 $2.0 0. 0 {> G, RKZ'ATUKd {LCLT) Y X * f 1 i ( " y 0 8 r1) '' $0.6 K (-01.9 n) 0.0 (-02.5 tc. ol : .69 pyc^pccts. : . v. 1.3. j . 1 i: c ;o.- 1:0 .i.. i: M.,i. jt. a '.! -' ^uior' aUic/' 1 '''vA > s^~'a\J, -iuvo iy ^ o; : ! I! iI COMPANY CONFIDENT]/ TRAN 024732 HARTOLDMON0042694 SL\t~BY:213i 239-0331 1; ii _ ____ I 10-' 1-92 T 6:?7PM :SHERMAN Si STERLING -RITZ C.ARLTON STLOl'IS: *22/32 i]h 'iv RECOMMENDED ACTION PLAN THE JOINT ACTION PLAN DEVELOPED BY THE FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS AND PLASTICIZER BUSINESS GROUPS, AND THE MEDICAL AND LAW DEPARTMENTS IS AS FOLLOWS: . 1. Appoint a Pro Jo cl. Manager - responsible for the ; overall management of the Aroclor pollution ! problem. He would be assisted by a Task Force i from members of each Business Group plus Medical, 1 Law, Engineer!nis and Manufacturing. IIt , 2. Notify all Aroclor customers of PCB problem and i relabel containers - within 60 days. 1I . 3* Clean up Mon sail to plants' effluents within 12 months, I 4. Develop and implement new packaging systems for ! Aroolox' 125H/1260 - within 6 months. i 3. Educate customers on need for clean-up at their ! plants - within 4 months. 6, Introduct to market, replacement products for I 'Aroclor 12^4^60 - bsptiiininr; 1/1/7ft (nuirtnl. I B/l/YO {Plasticisers). I I COK?rMPANy CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 02^ 733 HARTOLDMON0042695 -iqf^7 I RECOMMENDED ACTION PLAN Continue and expand blodegratafcion test program with Aroclor cericc, particularly 1242, 1248 and 125/1, Continue toxicological test program, Accelerate present analytical te3t program. Determine feasibility and cost of eliminating 5/6 Cl2 in Aroclors 1242 and 1248, (3/70) Study incineration products. (3/70) Develop business plan to offer: Monsanto fluid Reclamation and Recovery with Enviro Chum (4/70), (Reclamation already underway at Findett.) ' COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 024734 HARTOLDMON0042696 I 1' WJwr y/jLP-M expect from this pnnr,HAM7 . Throu^ this .action program, Monsanto would expect to.- I p.yVuin or convert a good portion of our business and profits ii j' j CONVERT SALES OR OUT OR ODDS OF PC'CBhmS RETAIN PRESENT SUCCESS Confined to A-125V | 1260. $20.3 H $22 R 70 b, Spreads to A-1248 and 12^2. $10 H $22 M 60# 2. C-fi'-n further valuable knowledge and time to: 'i _ 'J. Learn more facts. , bLI Protect our position. cl. Wake further decisions regarding our program. j. dj. Contribute to overall pollution knowledge. I' i 3, Clean-up the major contributing PCB pollution factors. i Minimize customer complaints and hardships. | COMPANY i CONFIDENTIAL I TRAN 024735 HARTOLDMON0042697 f j The Program Would: .r> -2X- 1. iCost acme money, I Eat, SARE - $400-500 M I ; Est. Capital - .f>7QO M I $1.1 - 1.2 M ' i |` 2. jExposc us to continued adverse publicity and possible law i [suits, i . 1 ! | 3. [Cause some customer discontent but much less than an [abrupt termination of production. iI COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL I ! I TRAN 024736 HARTOLDMONOQ42698 Jl-Vl Ui Ju I ! i ! iu~' i'-a2 " o iur.>i anu$u.-i.\ ot onuu_i.\u iu \l l.-uu_io.\ oilolia520/dk SUMMARY In summary, the FOB pollution problem la a very serious one. It is a worldwide ecological problem. At present the most serious offenders are the 5 and 6 chlorine containing products i {Aroblors 1254 and 1260). There are some Indications other members are biodegradable to varying degrees. Currently, much i' scientific testing is underway and more Information will be i forthcoming. Monsanto must aot in a positive cooperative I fashion, A plan of action has been discussed which ws feel indicates responsible action, Our stakes are large and because of the many possible effects on the Corporation - i your!guidance and approval of the suggested action program is reI quested, Thank you for your consideration. May we answer any questions? } i ! ! i' COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 0247j/ HARTOLDMON0042699 H5. KlNliTIS OP MICT1N6 Of 7HI COKPOJWTl AA6I*ISf COnxiTTH * April 20, IS70 * , Presenii '' *: ' . Ktiirt. ' . (, j. lock, Chairaan , M. H. Ilblo . J. A. (ck____ j. L. tinu^ i. j.jiKUU : C. K. Stutr M. C. Thredahl J. N. Ehlers, Secretary : plaintiff's fXHIWW ...^az PV/'fJL. 2. Ojlftcwle Olvls lew hurt on PCI Statue - Messrs. M. L. MinckUr. J.,**, t. J. I 1th, W. 0.. a p a g e o r g e, N. S. largen, J. < Sprlnggete, B. I. Kelly, K. P. Wheeler. Total Aroolor bust nets represents f2iR sales returning lion ...grfil profit or lljn gress Investaent. Solee of nen*degradahla A reele (1240, 1254 an C p o s s ib I y HAS Isotopes^ account for llln sales - II5^ In funetiencl fluids and lift plastleliers. Aroolor 1221 is degradable anC there Is no evidence that solid Aroclors peso a threat to the envirenaent. Otvisien has oaintoInod an aggressive prograe of custeaer education,, and cooperative efforts with research organisations, gevernaental agencies and wiIdftre groups to 1 dentify the scope of the prohlea, elioinate discharges, iapreve analytical aethods and conduct teslcity studios. 61002S6 rilK COPfin* HARTOLDMON0042700 ISO. CCACS meA Af*ACI AAA greupg ATA Appreciative If sur e. fferii. - InA ICSteA It MAS CA At AM A I At I A g A PeilAue lava! P 0.5 ppa Ia al Ik anA 5.0 ppa I" PeeA. o J i. PublIclty Aksut POl'a Has been IlalteA to a few srtlelas I A SC IAAtI PI A publ ICAtiAAS AAA ASMSA*AA TS UAtI I CpAg fAS 8AAA Ryan's press canfarance iaplIcAtIa| Man sen ta anA the praAucts. Pragraa Has been AStAblIshpA ta curtAlI Aischarges f Paa aur plAAts AAA I avals Nava aI reaAy Aaaa reAuceA s I g a 1 fleently. Wa ata tsrgsttAA tA rAACh 50 pArts ppr bl 11 Iaa by year enA * m(tN aa ultlasta tsrgpt aP 10 pprts par bl11Iaa. Sal as ara balng teralnataA ta a Auabar aP InAustrlel users where thara APA IAAbcAUAtA pass IbI I I11 AS aP CAAtPAl , Par such USAS AS pas 11cI Aa eatenAers, aaAlclaaI, Aentel aaA casaatIs, aaA cutting alls. I a aAAItlen, ma spa teraleating all saI as thraugN AlstrIbutars ta ansura battar eaatral ef aaA USAS. Act Iaa Is al raaSy Ia, NaaA ta raplaaa SSiT aP salas Par PlulAs applI cat Iaas aaA S JM aP saI as Par Plasticiser appllest Ians by alternative praAucts. Tapgat Par eaaplatlaa Is enA-1570. SubstI tuts praAucts arc balag AavalapaA ta raplaca tNa nan>Aegraeable Araclars. Salas will ba cast IauaA Par transferaers, capacltars aaA Neat traasPar uses mNIcN ara clasaA systaas ar taelaA uaIts aaA mNIcN paralt raclaaatIaa ar etNar caAtral aP aatarI a 1. ' r ik ^ ' TraAtParaars arc AapaAAaAt upas Araclars Par pel labia aparatIaa aaA aa substitute praAuct Is aval labia. The Ceaalttee Palt that mNIla the AIvIsIaa NaA taken aajor steps ta reselva this prabl aa, aera eP.PIraatlva settee aust ba.takaa. A raplacaaaAt praAuct shaul# be AavalapaA pa a arasb basis Par the set applIcattea. It was AeatAaA that the aPPIraatlva act Iaa ba!Ag taken shaulA ba saaauAIcataA ta caacapaaA gevarAaentel agaAclas tagathar with the rcasaAs Par canttnulag salas ta the IlalteA uses which mauIA lAvelva aajar public harAshlps IP iaasAlately AlscantIauaA. Messrs. fek, PutaalI anA 6 111 Is ara ta receaaenA actlans ^a AcaaAStrata the aPPIraatIva pragraa being taken. The Alvlslan I s ta repart Its specific plans ta the Caaalttee by June .1. . (Ixcerpt ta Messrs. Mlnckter, Salth, Kelly anA Marr.l s.) C1002HS7 SIR 002087 HARTOLDMON0042701 OUTLINE - CMC PRESENTATION PC% BfyiROHHgTTAL PROBLEM 2- INTRODUCTION! A, Reference asdt to discussion on November IT# 1969. K, Continue Interest in PCB - GvrrmtAl and University laboratories increasingly Interested. H. MAJOR DETELOmBiTSt ' A Articles la Jmznali and Mewpaper. B Meeting with Br1. f&sebreugh and 61 mitt at Berkeley, teHforn4*6 6. Fartleip&tioB s&th regulatory ageaeieg in meting at Duluth# ffimaesot-. S. Presence of F3 in Cted silk and its impact cm FDA action to set limits. 1. Increasing eoaeera in B.IL. and intervention of Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries od Food. P. cordialities with co-producers in lurope. 8. . re&ertioa to decision to dissent! mie Manufacture of Arooler and 1260. m. Acnonst B. Tfeffclmg with customer on their disposal and effluent problems, . developing substitute products for those Arcclor uses lit!eh cannot b# controlled. Schedule for ph&seout. So Toxicity studies continuing. HARTOLDMON0042702 Zf* SWffl! W mm Hiking prpiJ is controlling mntmln&tlen fro, wr plant and w? wrfey*s plant, w mt mw Im&Mm in m&lytie&l fch6ele^, m art learning sore about &'b md tbiulf* n U*@ enrlrerment, m wx mg^mulv^lj ekin4S r#pl*tMnfe pv&4ueta mnd raaoYiag mm Amlm gma mm sns6 fe# #ontrll4,, AA5/T0 0001530 HARTOLDMON0042703 On November 17, 1969 we discussed with you the PCB problem anr outlined a program for coping with It. At that time the decision was made to develop a plan to phase out the manufacture of Aroclor 1254 and 1260. Since then, as you well know, the pollution hysteria continues to grow and specifically In the area of PCS'3, the number of laboratories, governmental and university Involved continues to Increase as we predicted. '' At this meeting, I wish to bring you up-to-date on the latest developments, the progress we have made, and the need for modifying our strategy. ' - .e Since November, the press has been relatively quiet except for the recent flurry following Congressman Ryan's Press Conference. Two publications have appeared which Implicate PCB. The January- February, 1970 Issue of Environment' carried an article by Robert Risebrough and Virginia Brodlne. The presence of PCB in samples of human milk is first publicity reported in this article. An article by Dr. David Peakall of Cornell University appeared in the April Issue of Scientific `American. In this article, the effect of DDT and PCB on egg shell formation and reproduction Is described, and emphasizes that problem has been apparent~ since the introduction of DDT to the environment. Three newspaper articles were noted, one In the Miami Herald, another in the Tampa.Tribune, and the third in the Ann Arbor News, again describing the effects of DZ7T and PCB on the environment. 0001531 ' In March, we held discussions with Dr's. Risebrough and 01 cutt at Berkeley, California. They are personally convinced PCB's are harmful and were pleased that Monsanto was concerned and . cooperative. . . HARTOLDMON0042704 Also In Mareh, we participated with about 50 technical repre sentatives representing State, Federal and Canadian regulatory agencies In an 'objective discussion in Duluth, Minnesota. Analytical techniques, monitoring and toxicity of PCB were discussed. Absolute identification of PCB and its effect on the environment were identlfled as requiring considerable research. Concern was expressed by many present that some agency such as the FDA would take precipitous action before adequate information could be gathered which was believed to' require at least one year. Monsanto's presence and offer to cooperate was appreciated. About two weeks ago, we received word from.a Dr. Hill, Ohio State Health Department, that his laboratory had found PCB's in milk from an area around Columbus, Ohio. They believed they traced the source of PCB to deteriorating coating applied to silos in 1967. This coating was formulated using Aroclor 1254 and Aroelor 5460. We requested samples which our laboratory could analyze and so far our analytical work has shown chlorinated compounds similar to our Aroclor 1254 in the extract samples. The milk samples were contaminated during shipping and we have requested additional samples. During our discussions with Dr. Hill, we were told that the FDA was considering establishing a PCB limit of 0.2 ppm in food. Subsequent discussions with FDA personnel indicated that the FDA will In a few weeks advise their offices that PCB contents exceeding 0.5 PP in milk and 5 PP in food would subject the milk or food to ^confiscation. 0001^32 HARTOLDMON0042705 In the U.K. we are, of course, also experiencing considerable concern. ` The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has repeatedly requested Monsanto to divulge our customers. From the U.S. point of view we were reluctant to divulge this infor mation .because of adverse consequences worldwide. From the U.K. point of view, divulging.the customers' name with assurances that It would be kept in confidence and any information 'to be released would be cleared with both Monsanto and the customer is considered the wiser approach. We are receiving permission from NCR to divulge their name and will approach the Ministry on a basis. In Europe, we have assumed worldwide leadership and contacted the respresentatives of the European producers. Initially, their response was indifferent. Subsequently, Bayer, Germany, and Frodelac, France have become more concerned and are cooperating with information exchange. The Italian producer does not believe he has a problem. During our meeting with representatives in late January, we discussed our decision to discontinue the manu facture of Aroclor 125^ and 1260. immediately challenged the decision on the basis that information available Was not adequate to incriminate these Aroclors and that the adverse consequences of fires and explosions far exceed the potential threat to the environment. They also indicated that at the proper time they would be willing to have an officer of their company go on record as stating that the unavailability of these materials would result in serious power blackouts. 000153J HARTOLDMON0042706 e A you can see, we are still very much on the defensive, however, considerable progress has been made, . 0001534 HARTOLDMON0042707 0001535 HARTOLDMON0042708 We have worked closely with our customers and have offered our technical assistance n their disposal and effluent problems. Arrangements have been made for the return and recovery of some of these fluids. Successful control is possible for those uses which utilize Aroclors lri closed, sealed systems. In those instances where control is virtually impossible; e.g. coatings, adhesives, pesticide uses, cutting oils, we must discontinue sales or offer, preferably, an acceptable substitute product. These substitutes must be thoroughly evaluated to determine long term effect on the environment to avoid problems in the future. ' < it In developing product substitutes, we are very hopeful that the applications in the U.S. and U.K. can be met with biodegradable hydrogenated terphenyls or alkylated biphenyls. Testing is active in laboratories and plants. If successful, complete conversion from Aroclor 1242 should be possible within a year to eighteen months. The use of Aroclors to extend pesticide persistence is not one we are recommending of present, but we still have some extremely minor sales through distributors which we are discontinuing. We have recommended to the U. S. Department of Agriculture to reject Aroclors as an approved inert material when pesticide reregistrations occur this year. .We have developed or are making.rapid progress in developing acceptable substitutes for sealants, coatings and industrial fluid use. By year end we should have replaced Aroclors in sealants and coatings or have discontinued sales. Also, by year end about 50% of our Pydrauls will have been reformulated . with the remainder targeted for early 1971* 0001536 HARTOLDMON0042709 I SCHEDULE FOR DISCONTINUING AROCLOR APPLICATIONS Application Pesticide Bet end er Cutting Oils Coatings Sealants Hydraulic Fluids Pydraul AC Pydraul AC-WO Pydraul 625 Pydraul F-9 Pydraul A-200 Pydraul 540 Pydraul 280 NCR Paper Sales M Dollars/Year Target Date Completed June, 1970 December, 1970 December, 1970 September, 1970 September, 1970 September, 1970 December, 1970 December, 1970 December, 1970 December, 1970 July, 1971 0001537 HARTOLDMON0042710 Toxicity studies are now in the tenth month. Data to date Indicate that Aroclors are mildly toxic to mammals, however, it is highly unlikely that this will be a significant factor in any decision regarding the banning or restricting of the use of j Aroclors. , v ** * * . A major development has been achieved by our research department In refining our analytical procedures to the level that we now possess capabilities far exceeding many laboratories and un surpassed by any. Ve are actively communicating our methodology to other laboratories to improve the type of information being generated. Our objective is to be considered experts with reliable results. * Biodegradation studies have, thus far, confirmed our initial beliefs that the lower chlorinated biphenyls would degrade easily. We were disappointed in the resistance to degradation of some of the Isomers in Aroclor 1242. This would tend to confirm the belief that some of the 5 end 6 chlorinated biphenyls being found in the environment c.culd' be residue from degraded Aroclor 1242. We are actively pursuing the possible use of distilled Aroclor 1242 with degradable components as a possible substitute with minimum loss of other favorable characteristics; e.g. fire resistance. In summary, I recommend that'we proceed with the plan as presented and I particularly refer to the change in our strategy regarding the discontinuing the manufacture of Aroclors 1254 and 1260. 0001538 . HARTOLDMON0042711 I i 60 . MINUTES OF MEETING OF THE CORPORATE MANAGEMENT committee May )I , 1$70 Present: . Messrs. I. J. H. H. J. A. j. l. C. H. M. C. Bock , Che Irmen Bible Eck cm is Sommer Throdeh) PAGAN IC DIVISION - REPORT ON PCS STATUS Present: Messrs. M. C"! Minek Iar, JohnMeson, C. J. Smith, Rodney Ha rrIs, Jr., R. I. Kelly The Division's actions and plans concerning PCBs were reviewed, and the following app roved: - Discontinue sale of Aroc I or 1242 to NCR and r ep I ace . with HB-AO In U.K., and MI BP In U.S.A. Complete: U.K.-July 1, 1370; U.S.-January 30, 1371. - Close the Ioop on heat transfer appl Icatlons where fire resistance I s vital and replace with a Iterna tes In other cases. CempIete: December 30 , 1370. - Replace all non-bIodegradabIe chlorinated bI phenyls 1n hydrau11c applI cat Ions . Comp late 202: August I , 1370 Comp I ete 402: .. November 1, 1370 Complete 1002: December 30, 1370 - Close the Ioop on a 11 non-bledegradabIe ch1 or 1nated biphenyls In transformer applications. Comp 1ete: August 1, 1970. - Close the 1oop on capacitors as far as passible and replace 1242 with 12421. Cemplate: December 31, 1370. Terminate sales of all non-blodegradable chlorinated biphenyls to various non-control lab Ie end uses. Complete: August 30, 1370. The Comm!ttee asked that there be no delay with reference to the action taken to achieve the above plans without CMC approva I . The Division Is to rev 1ew progress made agalnst achieving the above objectives with the CMC In September 1370. j EXHIBIT NO. ^PLAINTIFF'S ^EXHIBIT noj I *15^ Gl<X)2''Sb HARTOLDMON0042712 Monsanto r* .wewf e JJe S. BBRGBJ - ST.- LOUIS-...................................................................................---- --------------------------- ----------------------------------- * NAY 11, 1970 UftJCCT MCaiHCt TO : W. B. PAPAQBOROI PHISONAL 4 GONFIDSfTIAL John Mason Is wiring today the favorable CMC reaotion to our latest plan. Mason will give details of plan In his wire to you and Dahlstrom. We are suggesting that you develop the plan for Europe while you are there in basic accordance with this, particularly for the U.K. In the EEC and other European Continent countries, we will oontlnue to supply and ooopete, but also oontlnue to provide the leadership for other European producers. Attached is our domestic timetable on what we are attempting to follow within the general agreement of the plan. You will note that this is more strict than what we have actually committed to the CMC, where in essence, we have until the end of the year to oomplete our reformulations and transfer of customers. All in all, we are now enoouraged that CMC will not put-wr Out or bUBlneas-arsd they all agree that we ~are now taxing responsible action. -- I hope this reaches you in time for your Brussels meeting and that you are having a good trip. 'H. S. BHIOER ms is ( v m TRAN 085305 HARTOLDMONOQ42713 Pydraul 625 AC & ACWQ tl. May 15 - Completion of production & letter announcement that reformulated products are available July 15 - Most customers will have converted. Letters to others that we will not offer old products after August 15. ^ ' 1 1 ' Aug. 15 - Completion of switch to reformulation. Pydraul P-9 August 1 - Begin customer transition November 1 - Complete transition. Therminol Pood Applications Immediately - no new food installations will be sold Therminol PR May 15 - Present customers will be informed that we will not supply PR after July_31 for their systems & recommend ' they.convert 'systems from FR as soonas possible. therminol Non-Food Applications May 15 - have definitive instructions to our salesmen which will give clear design .guidance.on requirements for FR systems. Non-Electrical Aroclors (1242, 1248, 1254,1260) ' May 15 - All customers will be notified by personal contact or letter that we will no longer sell non-electrical Aroclor after July 31. 1970............... ......... ............ IRAN 085306 HARTOLDMON0042714 Sc Louis - Central Offices May 11, 1970 H. S. BESGZN J. E. SFRINGCAI1 W. B. Ptptgtorge Attached hereto era copies of cherts I used la the preseatetloa with the CMC this moraiag. The CMC gave its approval for us to Implement Che plea es outlined oa the tvo sheets marked "PSXSDfl PLAN". We ere required ee report to the CMC should we make any major devletioa from these pleas ead ve ere elso required to make e progress report probably erouad the 1st of August. Would you pleess go eheed ead teke the aecessery ectloa with la your lndividuel buslaess groups end keep me edTlsed of progress. Ate. JOHN MASON rn HARTOLDMON0042715 1 COST OF RAPID PHASE-OUT - ALL CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS EXCEPT DIELECTRICS IN ADDITION COGS WOULD INCREASE GIVING TOTAL LOSS IN GROSS PROFIT OF - $ 2.75 M. LOSS IN SALES - $ 12 M TOTAL LOSS IN CROSS PROFIT - $ 6.1 M PLUS POSSIBLE WRITE-OFF OF SOME | 2.6 M KRU1&ICH AAOCLOR FACILITIES. o r, r> fer W W C5; *. HARTOLDMON0042716 I I l. smshl Ss' TO.MAINTAIN A PROFITABLE BUSINESS SERVING THE X\. NEEDS OF FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS USERS AND THE \v CARBONLESS DUPLICATING PAPER INDUSTRY WHILST \ MXNIKXZITHE ESCAPE Of NON-BIODEGRABABLE f'.1.*. - BIPHENYLS INTO TNE ENVIRONMENT. x W Vs* W W *7 a. HARTOLDMON0042717 I 3. ACTION X ACHIEVE objectives 1) MARKET NON-BIODECRADABLE CHLORINATES BIPHENYLS ONLY FOR CLOSED SYSTEM APPLICATIONS WHERE CONTROL IS POSSIBLE. 2) PHASE OUT OF ALL NON-CONTROLLABLE APPLICATIONS REPLACING WITH BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS OR OTHER SATISFACTORY PRODUCTS. 3 CO C-5 4 HARTOLDMON0042718 Cl THE CLOSED loop 4 1 / > o o n tn 4'-T" HARTOLDMON0042719 5. DO VZ HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO CLOSE THE LOOP t 3C0 C5 - HARTOLDMON0042720 iM 6. BIODEGRADATION 1) GOOD PROGRESS AT BOTH RUABON AND ST. LOUIS. 2) LOVER CHLORLNATED ISOMERS RESPONDING WELL, BUT . 566 CHLORINE ISOMERS EITHER NOT RESPONDING OR VERY SLOW. 3) CRITICAL PRODUCT IS 1242, CONTAINS SOME 50 ISOMERS -- GOOD RESPONSE ON 2, 3, 6 SOKE 4 CHLORINE ISOMERS. . 4) WORK IN HAND ON FRACTIONATED 1242 GOOD'PROGRESS TO DATE. 3GC rv. c * ,~2 HARTOLDMON0042721 FI C 'J R l 2 Seni-Continuouj Activated Sludge Biodegradation Aroclor 1242 Mixed liquor Before feeding 72 Hour Exposure A4*5 Aroclor 1242 Mixed Liquor After feeding 8 to 3GC /.a HARTOLDMON0042722 - FIGURE 3 1 Aroclor 1254 L+l Raw HIlk Extract 7^ ii 1^ A So V * Hlnutes U o o <n -i Co HARTOLDMON0042723 to HARTOLDMON0042724 REPLACEMENT PRODUCTS 1) 12421 SHOWS GOOD PROPERTIES AS CAPACITOR DIELECTRIC NOW MAXING 500 GALS. AT DAYTON FOR CUSTOMER TRIALS. ' ALSO WORXING ON 12301. 2) GOOD PROGRESS ON PHOSPHATE ESTER REPLACEMENTS FOR HYDRAULIC FLUID APPLICATIONS. -- TCP -- CSP -- TIP -- NONYL PHENYL/COMYL PHENYL DIPHENYL PHOSPHATE. 3) HEAT TRANSFER FLUIDS -- USING MAINLY ESTABLISHED PRODUCTS, E.G. HB-40 -- EXAMINING POSSIBLE ENTRY INTO DIPHENYL OXIDE PRODUCTION EITHER OWN PROCESS OR LICENSING. ' ' HARTOLDMON0042725 8. toxicity 1) NO CHANCE SINCE LAST REPORT - HAVE DISCUSSED RESULTS WITH DR. BURGER, EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT. 2) VE HAVE ANALYZED AROCLORS 1248 AND 1254 FOR OCTOCHLORO DIBENZO p-DIOXIN -- NONE FOUND. 3) CENTRAL INSTITUTE FOR NUTRITION AND FOOD RESEARCH, ZE1ST, HOLLAND -- EXAMINED RAYER,PRODELAC AND MONSANTO CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS FOR DIBENZO'FURANS -- NONE FOUND IN MONSANTO MATERIAL. . ' 300 C E 5 HARTOLDMON0042726 V. X X X INCINERATION 1) SUCCESSFUL TRIAL AT JOHN ZINC CO., TL'LSA. 1242, 1260, 1254 DESTROYED AT 2000 F. -- OFF CAS HCl. ENGINEERING WORK NOW IN HANS TO BUILD SUITABLE INCINERATOR. ESTIMATED COST $250,000 M. 2) INTEND TO CARRY OUT FURTHER TRIALS ON STILL BOTTOMS. ' 3) INCINERATOR PROBABLY LOCATED AT KRUMMRICH. 300 rw 5 5 2 HARTOLDMON0042727 5,000 ppb CONTHOl. OF PIA?fr rMISSIONS 3,500 ppb 3,000 ppb II. <, S- 5 lbs./day KKII.'Cm 1CII ' 200 lbs . /lny NCWPOUT - 0.5 lbs. HARTOLDMON0042728 CLOSING THE LOOP FOR INDIVIDUAL BUSINESSES. HARTOLDMON0042729 u> I TRANSFORMER & CAPACITOR DIELECTRICS 1) RESPONSIBLE INDUSTRIES USING 1254 AND 1242. 2) FIRE RESISTANCE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. ' 3) COLLECTION AND RETURN OF SPENT AND ARCED FLUID. 4)' REGENERATION AND RECYCLE. 5) TRIALS PUNNED FOR 12428 AND 12308 IF SATISFACTORY. 6) UBELLTNC OF AS KAREL TRANSFORMERS. 3GC HARTOLDMON0042730 HEAT TRANSFER FLUIDS 1) EDUCATION OF USERS WHERE FIRE RESISTANCE IS OBLIGATORY -- MAJOR INDUSTRIAL CORPORATIONS I.G. GOODYEAR AND CHEMICAL COMPANIES. . 2) PHASE OUT OF ALL FOOD APPLICATIONS -- LETTERS WILL IE SENT OUT MAY 15th -- NO SALES AFTER AUGUST ISth -- WILL COLLECT AND DESTROY OLD FLUID. 3) INSTITUTION OF REGULAR COLLECTION REGENERATION OR INCINERATION SERVICE. 4) PHASING IN NEW PRODUCTS WHERE CONTROL NOT POSSIBLE. nn w ww - 56 HARTOLDMON0042731 HYDRAULIC FLU I D S 1) RECOGNIZE THAT CONTROL Of SPILLAGE AND PUN? LEAKAGE MAKES THE USE OF NON-BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS UNDESIRABLE. 2) ALREADY REFORMULATED PYDRAUL 625, ACWG, 210 find F9 -- REPLACEMENT COMPLETE BY AUGUST I 3) OTHER PRODUCTS IN INTERIM STAGES (E.C. FYDRAUL AC FORMULATION ON COMPRESSOR TEST AT JFQ). 4) AIM TO COMPLETE 90% PHASE-OUT BY'DECEMBER, 1970. N ,N HARTOLDMON0042732 6. lte JULY. U.S. RUNNING TRIALS ON M.I.B.P., EXPECT DECISION 22od HAT -- PRELIMINARY INTERIUM PRODUCTION OF 40 H POUNDS PER MONTH TARGETED FOR 30th AUGUST -- PLANNING FULL SCALE PUNT 10 M LIS. PER ANNUM ON STREAM END JANUARY 1971 -- ESTIMATED NFC H - 1.2 M. 300 ' c HARTOLDMON0042733 n cn 17. PLASTICIZER & MISCELLANEOUS APPLICATIONS 1) DISTRIBUTORS ALREADY ADVISED NO MORE SALES AFTER 30th AUGUST. (200 CUSTOMERS) 2) LETTERS TO 661 CUSTOMERS WILL IE SENT OUT 27th MAY ADVISING NO MORE SALES AFTER 30th AUGUST -- DISPOSAL INSTRUCTIONS WILL IE GIVEN. 3) IN CONTACT WITH U.S.D.A. THROUGH AC DIVISION ON SILO PAINT PROBLEM. ^ . - 4) 1Y 30th AUGUST ALL BUSINESS IN THIS AREA WILL BE PHASES OUT. (n 300 C HARTOLDMON0042734 v s 'n V PRESENT PLAN 1) TERMINATE SALES OF ALL NON*BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS TO NON-CONTROLLABLI END USES. COMPLETE - AUGUST 30th, 1970. . 2) DISCONTINUE SALE OF ARCCLOR 1242 TO NCR AND REPUCE WITH HJ-40 IN U.K., AND H2B? IN U.S.A. COMPLETE - U.K. -- JULY 1st, 1970 0 COMPLETE - U.S. - JANUARY 30th, 1971 3) CLOSE THE LOOP OH HEAT TRANSFER APPLICATIONS WHERE r/R IS VITAL AND REPUCE WITH ALTERNATES IN OTHER OASIS. COMPLETE - DECEMBER 30th, 1970 n 30C HARTOLDMON0042735 X'. 4) REPUCE ALL NON-BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS \ IN HYDRAULIC APPLICATIONS. COMPLETE 20% - AUGUST lie,' 1970 " 40% - NOVEMBER lee, 1970. " 100% - DECEMBER 30th, 1970 5) CLOSE THE LOOP ON ALL NON-BIODECRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS IN TRANSFORMER APPLICATIONS. COMPLETE - AUGUST 1st, 1970 6) CLOSE THE LOOP ON CAPACITORS AS FAR AS POSSIBLE AND REPLACE 1242 WITH 12421. ' COMPLETE - DECEMBER Slat, 1970 f cn 300 HARTOLDMON0042736 `V CAPITAL OUSTS h:-40 expaxsic:* - axxistox SAXTOL'AX X REFINIXC " ACC* 1ST ON k:*40 capacity - .ocrt oil? capacity - aipniston ? $ 275,c:o $ 250,CCS $ ccc,coo $ 1,200,CCS CUMYL/NONYL PI-ZIJYL SIPKELTL PHOSPHATE J7Q INCIXIEATOR/RECIAXXIXG IQUI?5SfT TOTAL NIU FIXED CAPITAL 575,000 $ 255,000 $ 3,5*5,000 uu ) 20C HARTOLDMON0042737 :.or: TTY ~Q~* 1571 IaIstt::; /..ocioa sisi:.:.-: j SAITS 5 22.0,": 5. ?. ST 1 A1 * CROSS INVESTS" ? 8.5 "i $ 2.9 % 25.4 T: R.O.I. . 11.51 * ARCCICRS I $ 20.0 " . $ s.o ? 2.7 X % 29.0 9.5'4 I*./ (a 300 0063 HARTOLDMON0042738 I)X 177 l HARTOLDMON0042739 it-Vl 31 -CV-.'OOl . L)~ 1 ~ Cl- 'J ill.' ot -'UJU-i-'u I..I. $ -* ";T I 'ii Q>* THE CO R? 0HATC HA,\'ACir.i.\ i COMM IT7 i Septj,r.bar 14, IS 70 Present: Messrs. E , j. H . H. u . ft. E. J. h. C . j. N. S 0 c .t, Chairman 2 ij ) c ter. Put2C 1 1 Th r0cch 1 Eh i ors, Secretary I COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL OSCAK IC! DIVISION - PCB STATUS REPORT Procont.i Messrs, II. L. HI nek I er, jonn Mason P-roq r??;? made on thft sf*-pnint program approve Ly t|lB Comm i r r r r In May ispurted. 1. Terminate sales of all rmn-biodegrecia_b 1 e chlorinated biphenyls to non-controllable end uses. 1k.3 M lbs. of annual sales in this area have bfen terminated. - Sales for plasticizer applications hive bueu terminated. Dbspit? protests from rut tome r c , no i nd i e.6 t i vj u that foreign material Is being imported for. this uc-e. TRAN O39152 HARTOLDMON0042740 RY : 1 ^1 r'iVHlTh lfl- 1 fir' frllPV i.SHFtfMVs S sTFRI INfi -RIT7. PARI TON STI OILS ?iV-2 2 53 2. Discontinue sole of Aroclor 12^2 In NCR and replace with HB-^0 U.K. and Ml BP in USA. - The U.K. phase has been achieved with H 8 - ^ 0 substitution, ! Thu vufjfliUEiuii u I H t nr ii; M I f. f.Tha 0 1 a * 8 S ;,n the U.S. . will be accomplished on the target date of January 1, 1971, using existing plant end toll manufacture, - Longer term, a new plant to reduce cost Is required - but thic Is subject to H C ft signing a long term contract. i 1. Close th$. loop on heat transfer appl icat i one where fir* r?ta rdancy is essp.n r I a I nnH rrpl ace with a 11 em 411 ' I ,< other areas. " Use for food application has been d t con tinned. Approximately $0% of the business has been retained iwith substitute material. - 'Progress has been made for other heat transfer iapp1 Ications but continuing program of education itp users is necessary. , - ;Program of collection and regeneration of used material has commenced. ' - 'An incinerator project will be forthcoming. ' t 1 *> A. Replace non-bIodegrad adje chlorinated biphenyls In hydraulic applications. - ^0^ ph?se~<?U t will bn ar, mmp 1 I s had by November 1. * By year end will reduce from 14 M lbs. to 5 M lbs. annually leaving only .2^2 being uiou fui this purpose. i t 'An additional three months will be requireo to remove all PCSs from Pydraul 300 to accomplish a 90% phase-out when I 242-B is ava1 Table. S. Class ehs 1 Cv. K wm iivn L I oJuyj adao 1 e cmorinatbd biphenyls in cannr. 1 rnr nnrl transformer applloatiens. a This usage by 1L1 I r#Ju:> <. i I es t s necessary tor continuation of pub I i <p p9>ttr CBIfi f! firm . - Program for regeneration and recycling, gf sp&r.r marnrial proceeding. ' - . Continuing program of customer sduedfun Is being conducted. Sumna^v -- Actions tak$n haYc reducer^ s*1a* of 23. k K Ibi./yr. representing a gross profit of $1.4 (1, partially offset by COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL TRAN 039L53 HARTOLDMON0042741 c uiC t i t u t i afl if k I H li I' D r ri ri n n I r M " i * 1 i-urnulng ff giuas profit. Plant proqr amt h a v w i* * d u c <* d dlsHi'y In iha effluent, Vorls is being done to contain any spills and to atuin d u I n i ffl, iL- livei or plane effluent. Financial consequence is a reduction ,'n not income of 0^00,00 0 after tilrt. rnpr nt i nj a in return on gross investment from 1 ! , J Jg_ 8 i ^ Hmcc i *'.Ui U,,Bmi ..111 bu; I irci 06 rea from 525.4 to 23.6 M. The program represents increased SAKE expenses of $0.5 M In 13/0, but this should be reduced significantly next--year. - The program In the U.K. is proceeding on the same basis. In addition, with our urging, we expect other European preduciirs f n taka para! lei act i un> . Redonnc "da t i on * The Oiuicion r a q u$ 4 t * ,1 inrce montii'a. extrusion iTo ^cTn^i a v e a 3'cU phase out of the use of non- degradable PC&s In hydraulic fluid applications when the new 12 A 2 - 9 product will be available for substitution. C on cIu 5 Ion s The President commeqdgd hS BiYisinn f nr t h 1 niiil !*..<. H< ogress maoe on its program. The three month's extension requested for phasing out of products In hydraulic: fluldc wo* J with cne caution that the Division continue to exert pressure to move this program as fast as possible. Further progress on the provgram _Sh.oul.ri be. v i-ewed with -the Corirmittee In the first quarter of 1971 (Excerpt to Messrs, H. L. Minckler, T. K. S m. b h <) COMPANY TRAH 0391W CONFIDENTIAL * HARTOLDMON0042742